Dear Queer and You Can See Everything

[00:00:00] Alena: I've been more bored in hour and a half long movies and I was not bored a single second in this. [00:00:11] Music: If you have a question, I have no fear, you can simply ask your trusty Dear queer. Dear queer. [00:00:36] Lauren: Happy November. [00:00:37] Alena: Yeah, it's been. It's been a while now since we've. When was our last episode? [00:00:43] Lauren: Yeah, we took a extended summer vacation and we are coming back with monthly episodes that we're really excited about and. Yeah, can't wait to chat. So today we are talking about the thing that I can't get out of my mind. I [00:01:04] Alena: can't stop thinking about it. [00:01:05] Lauren: Cannot stop thinking about it. You can see everything. Nathan Fielder's documentary. [00:01:11] Alena: We saw it a couple nights ago and yes, it has, like, lived in my brain rent free, as they say, since then. [00:01:21] Lauren: If you don't know what we're talking about and you don't know who Elizabeth Holmes is or you do and you don't know about this documentary, now would be the time to pause our podcast, go watch it, and then come back because we are going to unabashedly spoil this because it's just impossible not to. [00:01:40] Alena: Okay, so this documentary is Nathan Fuhler being let into the life intimately of Elizabeth Holmes and Billy Evans. [00:01:51] Lauren: Yes. Nailed it. [00:01:54] Alena: And the first half of the doc is exactly that. [00:01:58] Lauren: Yes. [00:01:59] Alena: And he documents their life at this cabin by the ocean. [00:02:04] Lauren: Beautiful. [00:02:07] Alena: Basically. Kind of like having this. This kind of not creepy guy necessarily, but this like this third wheel hanging out with you and your baby. Babies, like 30 days before you're going to jail, basically. [00:02:23] Lauren: Yeah, yeah. It's the lead up to Elizabeth Holmes, 11 year prison sentence. And it's uncomfortable and there's a lot of power dynamics at play. And even though the title is you can see everything, I think in seeing everything, the more we see, the less I [00:02:44] Alena: know, the less we know. And that's one of the big, like, meta messages of it too. Right. It's like this idea and the idea with documentaries generally being like, oh, well, if I can see it, I can know it. I can know better what it is or what happened. [00:02:57] Lauren: Yeah. [00:02:57] Alena: We are basically being led into Nathan Fielder's experience of being so intimate with Elizabeth Holmes and her family, seeing so much, but then probably being even more confused [00:03:11] Lauren: at [00:03:11] Alena: the end of it. Right. Like he doesn't really know what he experienced and we don't really know. [00:03:18] Lauren: Yes, [00:03:18] Alena: yes. [00:03:19] Lauren: And which begs the question, why the heck did they want to do this? [00:03:25] Alena: I mean, they say that the worst scissor of the box thinks differently. So that's One element. They were hoping maybe for a different narrative. And then the human. Because they felt. I think that's the opening scene with Billie talking on the phone, being like. Well, it's. Without knowing her, it's easy to think she's some kind of monster. And I was just gonna say, anyone who likes reality TV like we do and watches it because you feel like an amateur psychologist. Yeah. You will love this movie. [00:03:52] Lauren: Oh, absolutely. But you've seen it because you followed our spoiler alert. So we are talking to family. [00:03:57] Alena: So, you know they love it. [00:04:00] Lauren: Yeah. And I think it's just. It's so fascinating because it's this just, like, intense effort by Billy and Elizabeth, I'm assuming, to preserve that nuclear family identity. They're like, come see us. We're just like you. We're so normal. And it's like, little do they know, or maybe they do, and we're all getting a wool pulled over our. That it's like, the more they let us in, the weirder. Like, reality is so much stranger than fiction. [00:04:33] Alena: Yes. [00:04:33] Lauren: And it's like. Yeah. It's like, even Nathan's presence in their life, it just totally blows up that dynamic. [00:04:42] Alena: So Billy, first of all, don't think I ever saw him hold the baby. Burp. The baby barely does, like, does nothing with the children, maybe. I think he takes one. One of the kids down to the ocean, but, like, literally or, like, [00:04:55] Lauren: passes them to some child caregiver that, like, [00:04:58] Alena: if Elizabeth's there, she's holding the baby always. He's never touching the baby. Also, don't think his song's small once. He's such a, like, angry, angry guy. [00:05:08] Lauren: Yeah. [00:05:10] Alena: Also, I heard that he was the one who suggested they see him naked in the shower. [00:05:16] Lauren: So weird. It's like, what in your brain? I mean, we're not here to diagnose people. But I've never been more confident of being like, this is a narcissistic person who's like, hey, come on in. This is what the people are gonna like. How. How does make that make sense? [00:05:33] Alena: Well, and then part of the confusion in watching it, too, is like, how do go together? Like, you have to. What [00:05:41] Lauren: do you mean? Like, [00:05:42] Alena: Liz and. Okay. And that's another overarching question. And something that the documentary does so well is like, we are constantly asking ourselves, is she a victim or a perpetrator? And we. It challenges us to say, well, maybe she can be both. [00:05:59] Lauren: Yeah. [00:05:59] Alena: Right. Want her to be one of them. I think. [00:06:01] Lauren: Yes. [00:06:02] Alena: So it's brilliant the way. The way it challenges us to say, hey, why. Why do you. Why do you need to put her in one of those? Like, we can. We can make an argument for either. [00:06:13] Lauren: Yeah. And I think that that also touches on too, even, like, for folks who are, you know, socialized as women, whether we like it or not, there is a performative aspect to our lives, and Elizabeth is very aware of that. When, you know, if you go back to the time of Theranos, you know, she adopted the clothing and style of Steve Jobs. She lowered the [00:06:40] Alena: voice, [00:06:41] Lauren: and it's [00:06:42] Alena: like [00:06:42] Lauren: there's this huge performance. So she is not someone unfamiliar with performance. And as much as she tried in this film to say, oh, I hate when my image is used and all of these things, you don't do all those other things. The red lipstick, the lowering the voice, the taking the photos, unless you do care about that and are a willing participant to a degree. So I don't buy that. It's like this was put upon her. Yes, there are some terrible men in her life and there are results of that. But she's not an unknowing person. [00:07:21] Alena: No. And she's hard enough to know how she is perceived by other people. [00:07:26] Lauren: Like [00:07:26] Alena: the whole egg thing, she knew he would take over. [00:07:30] Lauren: You think so? [00:07:30] Alena: I think so. Because the [00:07:33] Lauren: fact that she [00:07:33] Alena: took over and she was like, oh, yeah, he doesn't like when I do that. Then it was just. I feel like she used that as an opportunity or she didn't dissuade anyone from seeing that as a revealing moment about their power dynamic. And just the fact that she's like, I don't care that he does this. He just makes all the decisions. He does this. He does it. It's like she was almost too willing to show how powerless she is. [00:07:58] Lauren: Yeah. And I think she also wasn't looking out for him. She was totally comfortable with letting him look like the controlling freak. [00:08:07] Alena: Yes. [00:08:08] Lauren: Because I think that helps her. And even though she, you know, has been in these bad power dynamics with men, she still finds agency and participation and does what she can in, in, in ways. Yeah. [00:08:22] Alena: And the whole performance thing, too, because I think I've seen other people commenting who are in her life previously being like, this is not the woman I saw commanding the board rooms and stuff. Like when she was working, like, you know, clearly she knew she knows how to code switch in the right. [00:08:37] Lauren: Although I think we did get a glimpse of it when she was on the phone, for reasons unbeknownst to me, restarting or doing Theranos 2.0. When she was doing those workholes, I saw her light on. [00:08:50] Alena: Right. [00:08:51] Lauren: And they're like little glimpses of that. Like, past Theranos versions, I prefer. Yeah. [00:08:57] Alena: So the first half is basically that, and then she goes to Joe. And I remember thinking to myself, what is the rest of the movie? [00:09:03] Lauren: Yeah. So we knew this was a three hour film. And so we're like, okay, well, we're almost to the. We're like three days away. We're one day away. Like, what [00:09:12] Alena: now? What? [00:09:13] Lauren: What? Where's this headache? [00:09:14] Alena: Yeah. [00:09:14] Lauren: And I hope you all know because you've seen it. The addition of Amanda Seyfried coming in just flipped that movie on its head in. And it kept doing it. It kept upping the ante in this way that I haven't seen a documentary film do. It was. I loved it. It [00:09:34] Alena: was [00:09:35] Lauren: shocked. She was us and her and Elizabeth and so many things. [00:09:41] Alena: And also someone keeping Nathan accountable. [00:09:45] Lauren: Yes. Yeah. [00:09:46] Alena: Like, I mean, I don't mean to forward right to the end where you were obviously gonna jump around, but, you know, she basically asked him, like, do you. Did you. Is there anything in there that would have made her, like, look worse, basically, that you kept out? Because clearly you kind of like her. [00:09:59] Lauren: Yeah. [00:09:59] Alena: You know, like, how can you not like her? How can you not have built. See, like, she's like. I can tell you have some sort of bond with her from this experience, which is also so meta or such a good commentary on documentary where we believe, ideally it's an objective view of something. But how can we be. We're all humans. [00:10:21] Lauren: Yeah. And it's just in this film we get to see him there, where in other documentaries, we don't often get to see the filmmaker in it, even though they are there. And that does happen. And so I think there was this really beautiful honesty that came out of it. And it's like, yeah, how. How can you not be invested and involved in human. [00:10:41] Alena: Yeah, [00:10:42] Lauren: because it is. It's such, like a human thing. [00:10:45] Alena: It's true. It's a more honest depiction of a documentary because he's not hiding the fact that, hey, I'm, like, invested in this in the same way that in another documentary they are, but they're just. We don't see them. [00:10:56] Lauren: Yeah, exactly. [00:10:57] Alena: Yeah. That's brilliant. That's true. And the Amanda, like, even just watching her watch the. Like, his footage was brilliant. [00:11:08] Lauren: I don't know how many screens were in that frame, but I loved it of the, like, watching them watching us while we're watching. And I said, we are all watching, and we all think we know the truth because we've seen something and we don't. And it was just such a beautiful reminder of that. And then, like, the story getting created at each level, I loved it. [00:11:28] Alena: And the fact that she had studied Elizabeth all those hours of the tapes and things. And then she gets to meet Billy, too, and clearly can't stand him and, you know, an accurately poor opinion of him that we all do. So she's also us in that sense. But I. What will live with me forever is basically at the end where we keep going between her acting as Elizabeth Holmes in prison. [00:11:55] Lauren: Yes. [00:11:55] Alena: And then her and him by the fire. [00:11:57] Lauren: Yes. [00:11:58] Alena: And I had to keep reminding myself that she is not Elizabeth Holmes. It is still Amanda because she was doing such a good job. And that was kind of part of the. I don't know how by design that was, but I felt like it was so impactful to have this juxtaposition to keep going back and forth between them talking about recreating it and the actual recreation of it. [00:12:25] Lauren: It's like you almost get to see how memories and, like, our perception of reality are formed in real time. And it's like this reminder of, like, we are all creations. The truth is, you know, there's your side, my side, and then the truth is somewhere in the middle. And it's like we're all creating these realities, and they were creating it in real time, and we got to see it. So the last scene, as we know, is basically the reenactment of Nathan going into the prison to have this frank conversation with Elizabeth. And you're not allowed to film cameras or recording devices in there. And so it had to be entirely based on his account, which I thought was just, like, so powerful when the whole thing is, like, we're basing what is truth on what Elizabeth tells us, everyone's account. And you get to see that in real time, them stitching it together and creating it. And you get to see, oh, maybe, was it this word? Was it that word? And these things that we hinge what we think we know on get blown up [00:13:30] Alena: totally. And how every word is so meaningful. Yeah. One can be so very different than the other and change the meaning of the whole thing. Yeah. But really, that. That's also showing. That's how our memory works. Every time we remember something, we're just putting it together again. Yeah. It's not like we have some in a file folder and we can take it out and read it exactly as it was. So it also Reflects that. Like you said, it's his as best as he can recollect, which I also can't imagine the pressure of that. He must have ran out there and written down everything immediately that he could. The stress of that. [00:14:00] Lauren: Yeah. [00:14:02] Alena: And [00:14:02] Lauren: I think the way we can convince ourselves of one thing in one moment and know something to be so true. And then someone asks a question, you have an outsider who doesn't have bring with it all the baggage that you bring to that moment, who asks a question that makes you then look back and be like, oh, maybe it was different. [00:14:20] Alena: And Nathan has such a great way of seemingly this kind of do less philosophy in a way where he's just, like. He lets people expose themselves. He asks the deeper question than to what they're doing. Like, he wants to cut right through. Yeah. Or just even that scene when Billy's like, yeah, yeah, I know exactly what you're thinking. And he's like, no, you don't. Like, this is so honest. Right. Also, Amanda being able to hear about the impact of her performance. [00:14:51] Lauren: Yes. [00:14:52] Alena: And then kind of get defensive, but also acknowledge she's getting defensive. And then to act her out again. [00:14:59] Lauren: Yes. Knowing the reaction, it was so human. And it's. It was just so juicy because it's like, I felt like when Amanda arrived, it was like we arrived and it was almost interactive because she was saying the things we were thinking and feeling. And it wasn't perfect, and it was real and honest, and I just. I respected it so much. We're assuming we've all seen it. And I think the big question. And maybe it's. Maybe it doesn't even matter anymore, but I think the. The purpose of the film for Elizabeth and Dylan is like, if you see us and see everything, you will come to believe that we are in a sin. And then you have Nathan who's like, if you see it, it's like, the more you see, the less you know. [00:15:50] Alena: Yeah. Well, actually, that just reminded me too, of the scene where Elizabeth claims she never lied or, like, couldn't recount a time. Like, you cannot. I'm sorry. You cannot trust anyone who says they've never lied before. [00:16:01] Lauren: No, of course not. [00:16:02] Alena: You can't. She's fascinating because she's so confusing because that moment was either real or really good acting. But they're getting kind. [00:16:16] Lauren: Does it matter? [00:16:17] Alena: I mean, [00:16:18] Lauren: if she doesn't understand it. [00:16:22] Alena: Just how upset she seemingly got when Billy was like, it's okay. You go to. You get ready for bed. And she got up and kind of got Teary eyed. But I mean, we saw her throughout the movie get tearful at some moments. That might have just been convenient because she wanted to be human. [00:16:35] Lauren: Is it important to know like if she, she did the things. I mean, she's in prison for it right now. [00:16:43] Alena: Yeah. [00:16:44] Lauren: So that says a lot. [00:16:48] Alena: I mean, I don't think you get convicted for something like that when you're in the school. [00:16:56] Lauren: Yeah, [00:16:56] Alena: let's just, let's just say that. [00:16:58] Lauren: Yeah. [00:16:59] Alena: I just don't think I, I trust the legal system. I know it doesn't always get a lot of things right, but if anything, it usually lets off people like, who are probably are guilty but there's maybe not enough evidence. But if you're convicted, there's another. [00:17:16] Lauren: I just, the thing I can't get over is like, okay, you get convicted on this thing and then the thing you're going to do is a version of it. [00:17:25] Alena: Like [00:17:26] Lauren: who, what, how [00:17:28] Alena: that's doubling down. That could be a major double down on like I, I want to look so not guilty that I'm gonna double down. [00:17:35] Lauren: Well, then I guess it's like perception is reality and it's like if she can come out of it with the perception of. Well, she hung onto it. Who would hang onto it for that long if there was some. [00:17:46] Alena: Yeah, I think it's like, it's an incredible movie. I hope it wins lots of awards. [00:17:52] Lauren: Yes. I want to see what happens in documentaries after this because I think it's kind of opened up the genre in a way that is really cool and people are talking about it. I immediately had to change my office Halloween costume. Yeah. [00:18:08] Alena: Yeah. You should post a picture of that. [00:18:10] Lauren: Sure. Yeah, we could do that. [00:18:12] Alena: Yeah. So we're hoping you all saw it. Unless we just. Or otherwise we just would have spoiled it off for you. [00:18:19] Lauren: We'd love to get any, hear your thoughts on the film, any hot takes, Send us the memes. We're just loving the dialogue that is coming out of this film and just feeling very creative about it. [00:18:33] Alena: And we will see you again next [00:18:35] Lauren: month. Yeah. Day Nudies. [00:18:38] Dear Queer: This has been another episode of Dear Queer. Just a reminder, we are not actually experts. Any advice given should actually come from our experts who we will bring in from time to time. Music brought to you by Sean Patrick Brennan. Produced by myself, Lauren Hogarth and your host as always, Elena Papayam.