Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Today on Dear Queer, we have an extra special treat for y'all. This is going to be an ongoing series for Dear queer on gender.
For us, gender is something that can change and evolve that we struggle with and in our best moments, can give us euphoria. It's something, whether we like it or not, can be both deeply personal and also one of the first things folks try and clock about us. So please join us for some highlights from our conversations with past guests about gender and what it means for each of them. Today you will be hearing from relational psychotherapist Dillian Catrice and resident neuroscientist doctor Mandy Wintank. We hope you enjoy.
If you have any questions, you can simply add your trusty dear cry.
So, Dylan, welcome to our series on gender.
We would just love to start off by having you tell us what you are feeling with your gender currently today.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: Great question.
Hot pink spoiler. The t shirt I'm wearing right now.
Yeah, like, what is it today? Who knows? Such a tough question.
You know, I'm feeling like a little soft butt, a little playful, a little free. So what does that fall into? You tell me. Amazing.
[00:02:10] Speaker C: That's its own category. That's its own category. I love it.
[00:02:13] Speaker A: And have you always, do you feel like you have a good relationship with expression of gender and how that shows up for you?
[00:02:22] Speaker B: I think most of the time I certainly have a various relationship with it. So, I mean, going way back, I grew up, like most of us, in a super conventionally heteronormative environment.
And, you know, I remember as a kid, anytime I had to participate in activities that were divided between boys and girls, I was a bit disappointed because most of my friends were girls, and I felt like I had to kind of, like, steel myself or, like, put on a bit of a mask to, like, prepare and, like, blend in with the boys.
So I always knew I was somehow different than other boys. Classic statement.
But I wasn't sure exactly why, only that it was not good based on the reactions from people around me.
So this was the beginning of a bit of a gender shame that I have spent a lot of time unpacking and will probably be doing so for the rest of my life. Though the general trajectory, it gets easier.
So, you know, I think one thing I've really learned about my experience is that it's kind of living proof of how deeply intertwined gender and sexuality are. You know, it was only once I was in my later teenage years that I felt the courage and the kind of, like, rebellion within me to stop censoring myself and, like, let go of my vigilance around maintaining my sort of passibility as straight, which was, you know, not that solid in the first place.
And, you know, that's when I started to feel my own kind of sense of, like, gender euphoria.
Just, you know, I've always said that heterosexuality is a main tenet of conventional masculinity, which I feel like I should say again, like, heterosexuality is a main tenet of conventional masculinity. So to be anything other than heterosexual is to fail at conventional masculinity and is already, you know, feminized or queer.
[00:04:25] Speaker A: Would you talk to us a little bit about gender euphoria? I think that is a really beautiful aspect for those of us who fall along the gender spectrum.
[00:04:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Gender euphoria is that beautiful moment wherever. Usually after a long time of repressing yourself in your presentation, kind of curating yourself to match other people's expectations or to not raise any sort of suspicion, actually feeling like what's on the outside matches what's on the inside, to put it as simply as I can, usually after a very long time of nothing, allowing yourself to do that or not feeling free or safe to do that. So, you know, when.
Yeah, it's that alignment that is just like, ah, a weight off my shoulders, you know, not maintaining, like, who's perceiving me this way and how. And, you know, like, just freedom and accuracy and authenticity.
[00:05:36] Speaker C: I love witnessing the gender euphoria of people who have just had top surgery.
That's, like, the most beautiful thing to see people posting their new chests and their scars and their. Just, like, no matter the physical discomfort, it's just the beaming faces of this finally moment where they're like, finally, it's just so beautiful.
[00:06:01] Speaker B: Yeah, such a relief, literally. And, you know, like, it's.
Yeah. I've worked with several clients who have had top surgery over the course of our time together, and it's been a really, really beautiful thing to witness and just to see the shift and the joy that comes from.
[00:06:22] Speaker C: And so what are some common struggles you see in your practice around gender? Like, what are the questions people are asking themselves or. Or how that's sort of manifesting in their lives when they're questioning things or feeling discomfort around their gender?
[00:06:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I work mostly with folks from the LGBTQIA community, and I think mostly for my queer clients, the struggle is often around the discovery and exploration of their authentic gender and healing from the forcing of prescriptive roles that didn't fit before.
So, you know, I would say that's the general gist of, like, what I see in terms of people dealing with gender in psychotherapy.
Yeah. Different for straight clients, but, you know, that's for another podcast.
[00:07:19] Speaker A: You kind of touched on this a little bit, but, you know, so about things feeling aligned and why is it. I mean, it may seem obvious, but why is it so important that our felt sense of gender aligns with our outward presentation in the way we show up in the world? I often feel like, you know, I put on, you know, even just like, this vest, and it's like, okay, this is I'm putting on. People are going to perceive me in this certain way, and that feels good. Like, why is that so important? These, like, I don't know, armors and ways we present to the world.
[00:07:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, when our outward presentation doesn't reflect our felt sense of gender, we tend to be perceived and treated in ways that don't quite feel right. And it creates a kind of fracture between how we feel we are being perceived and who we really are. Who we feel ourselves to be. Yeah.
I mean, that said, gender is an ever shifting interface of presentation and perception, where the rules and meanings change depending on the context. And we ultimately only have so much control over how others are assessing our gender.
It's often a privilege for trans and gender nonconforming people to have their gender accurately perceived by others. Right. So it's important that we not reduce gender to outward presentation.
Sometimes we alter our gender presentation for safety.
But, I mean, to return to your question, the experience of having our gendered self align with our outward presentation just keeps us more intact in our interactions with others and can provide. I mean, yeah, like, gender euphoria. You know, like, this feels, right. There's just a felt sense of okayness versus the kind of struggle or anxiety that maybe we've experienced in the past.
Yeah.
[00:09:15] Speaker C: And what sort of advice do you have for people who are just starting off on a kind of gender questioning journey? Are there common things you might suggest to them?
[00:09:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I say welcome, and, you know, you're in good company, and there are all sorts of resources and supports and connections and people waiting for you should you choose to seek them out.
It's definitely normal for this process to feel scary or overwhelming. Gender has fundamental implications in our lives, our social existence, our self understanding. Right. So there are a lot of identities, terms, and information out there. I would say try and lead with your gut, your sense of intuition, you know, trying to fit yourself into other people's molds is unlikely to feel completely satisfying. So, you know, take inspiration. Notice when you recognize yourself and others expression of gender. You know, notice when gender things don't feel so good and just gather all these moments up to discover your relationship to your gender from the ground up.
[00:10:24] Speaker A: I love that.
[00:10:25] Speaker C: Amazing.
[00:10:25] Speaker A: That's great.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: You know, people starting to question their gender, you know, just keep in mind that gender can change, and that's okay. So some people have a very stable experience of their gender over the course of their lifespan, while others experience shifts and changes over time.
Those are all very personal experiences, and they're all valid and okay and also beautiful.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: I know when I started kind of playing more with masculinity and presented, you know, cut my hair and, like, started presenting more androgynous. And I'll use the word mask because that feels good to me. But I actually, in doing that, found myself more able to access the feminine sides of me. I actually felt more comfortable because where before I used to kind of tamp down my femininity and was afraid of it. By embracing my masculinity and those sides of myself, I felt more free to dip into my feminine sides. And it was really fun and beautiful.
[00:11:34] Speaker C: That's so funny. I felt the exact same thing. Yeah, well, not recently, but in one of my essays, I wrote about that. That is this idea that it was only once. I like. Growing up, I was going into my dad's closet and wearing his coats and jackets. I liked that kind of oversized, big. It felt like this. It just felt comfortable to me. It felt right to me. And then over the years, I'm pretty sure my mom gave some of them away, and I was like, what? Maybe she didn't like me wearing them. We never had a conversation about it, but I always kind of tended towards that. And then in university, got quite femme, kind of. Cause it was more attuned to the male gaze at the time. But, yeah, it was only once I was re accepting of that masculine side that I was like, yeah, why not? A little bit of nail polish doesn't hurt. But before I was able to actually own that masculine side, I would have felt like that was too femme for me to be comfortable in. It's a balance.
[00:12:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like you have to protect. At least my experience of it was like I had to protect my tomboy masculine side. And so I rejected all of the femininity and then in only embracing it and dressing and presenting in a way that felt aligned with me that I could then bring those other things back, because I think gender is, it's like this beautiful mash of everything, and it shifts day to day, and that's what's fun.
[00:13:02] Speaker C: And that's a great point you brought up Dylan, too, about, because some people, the shift is more extreme from day to day. And so that is great advice you gave there, too, to welcome that, because that might be really confusing for someone who maybe initially feels more masculine and then feels very. Starts to feel more their feminine side, but then kind of goes back and may be confused by that. Like, how can I feel both such extremes? But so I think that's a really great point to make, that they're all part of a cohesive whole. It doesn't have to be one or the other. And it can change quite often.
[00:13:36] Speaker B: Exactly. Change can be part of authenticity. It doesn't have to be one thing.
Dear Queer.
[00:13:46] Speaker A: We are back with our shaved neuroscientist, Mandy Wintank. And yeah, we're going to open up into our gender conversation. And, Mandy, how would you best describe your gender now?
And if you could kind of let us know how you got there and just, yeah, whatever you feel comfortable sharing with us.
[00:14:09] Speaker D: Oh, absolutely.
I mean, I think, you know, when Elena, when you shared that you recently adopted, they.
That's kind of, you know, it's a similar process where I'm like, I'm not gay enough. I'm not queer enough. So I, you know, I've been in. I feel like I'm queer from, like, a few different angles. So I've been in same sex relationships. I definitely, like, identify as bicep or whatever. I'm definitely not heterosexual.
That was something that was a different kind of journey.
You know, sexuality was pretty easy. I was playing hockey. Everyone was kind of, you know, like, oh, this is fun. I definitely, and my very first sex was with a female, and I hadn't even thought of that as being an expression of my sexuality. When I was in, like, grade six, I had a sexual female relationship. And then, yeah, but I was sort of in this other camp of, like, thinking and all this other stuff, but definitely not heterosexual. But that was easy. That was just like, yep, this feels good. I love this woman and everything, but in terms of gender, it felt like it was much more difficult. And I remember when everyone started putting pronouns on their emails, I didn't do that. And, you know, I'm usually, you know, right there at the head of the curve things, and there was something holding me back, and I was.
Felt really bad because I wanted to be an ally. But I also didn't, couldn't put them down for some reason. And then I realized it was because I didn't want to put she her. And so that was the point where I started using they and I started doing it on my talks, like on my lectures. I would start my university classes, putting my pronouns so I could actually discuss it and mention it, not just put it on my email.
And that felt good, but it also felt like I'm not queer enough. Like, you know, I present very fun sometimes, and so it didn't feel like I was allowed to do that. And then my next big light bulb moment was when someone used the pronouns they for me, even now, like, it just, it makes me want to cry because it was like jetter euphoria. It was like totally, like I was, it was from the 519 center for some posts that we had made for my company. And they referred to me as they. And I was just like, wow, like, it was orgasmic. Like, it was just absolutely amazing. And I still get that feeling when people use it, which doesn't happen often because I do they she, but some people do. And it feels absolutely amazing. And that was my defining moment where I'm like, there's something real here. Like this. This felt too good to be like I am they. I don't know what it all looks like. I don't. You know, gender is a thing from a lot of different angles, but I know that I am not, I'm not cisgendered. I know that and I don't know what to call it, but that's how I feel. And so that's where I am right now. And I don't know where it's going to end up. I think part of that is, you know, I was born in 1975. We didn't have a lot of options back then, and us Gen Xers are still trying to sort out how do we manage this among the millennials and the Gen Z ers who can adopt it pretty easily?
[00:17:34] Speaker A: I think that's part of why I love the word queer, because it encompasses my sexuality and my gender in a beautiful way.
I was definitely, I think we just sub, you know, I was born in the eighties and, you know, sub word, the word tomboy for.
[00:17:53] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, the number of tomboys. The number of tomboys in like a neurodiverse umbrella too. Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: And it's just like this thing where there are so many aspects of female traits and things that I identify with and love and connect to with other, other people.
But it's also been this, like, I also was just never like, I am not like a capital w woman. Yeah, yeah. So then coming into that has felt so good and, yeah, even that same kind of euphoria when someone uses they them pronouns on me, I feel more and more myself. And so I think if people are thinking about that stuff, it's like you just gotta keep leaning into the stuff that feels like you. It gives you those euphoria buzzes that you mentioned. Cause, yeah, they're the best. Yeah. Just by using someone's pronouns, we can give them that, like, just like, whole body good buzz feeling. And it's when people have trouble with it, figuring out, you know, they're like, oh, I don't wanna mess it up. It's like you have the opportunity to just make someone's damn day figure it out.
[00:19:10] Speaker D: Yeah, totally.
[00:19:12] Speaker A: I love this for you.
Are you going to be doing email signatures? Are you going to introduce yourself to your students?
[00:19:21] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, maybe.
[00:19:22] Speaker A: Am I throwing too much at you?
[00:19:24] Speaker C: No. I mean, I changed a couple, like, tags on Instagram or things where I've added it, but yeah, it'll be probably part of the discussions along the way and that the students are narrating and stuff. For sure.
[00:19:43] Speaker A: This has been another episode of Dear Queer. Just a reminder, we are not actually experts. Any advice given should actually come from our experts, who we will bring in from time to time. Music brought to you by Sean Patrick Brennan. Produced by myself, Lauren Hogarth, and your host, as always, Elena Papianis.
I'm getting that.
