Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: And so it was a very welcoming environment when I came out, but so I didn't really expect that and I was like, oh, wow, they're going to make me pick a side.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: If you have any questions.
[00:00:20] Speaker C: I love you.
[00:00:23] Speaker B: You can simply ask your trusty.
[00:00:29] Speaker C: Dear crew, bisexual people make up about half of the two sl GbtQiA population, yet are less likely to be out than others in the queer community.
They often face stigma and biphobia, even from people within the queer community. We wanted to get some insight into the bi experience and contribute to some bi visibility, and we're doing so today with dear friend of the pod, doctor, Mandy Winting. Welcome, Mindy.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: Hello. Thanks for having me again.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: Heck yeah. We're so excited to have you back. Do you want to give like a quick little intro of who you are and how you're joining us today?
[00:01:19] Speaker A: I am Mandy Wintink and I'm bisexual.
[00:01:24] Speaker C: Straight to the point. I love it. I love it.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: Works for me.
[00:01:29] Speaker C: Yeah. So if so, for our listeners, you've heard Mandy before contribute to our neurodiversity episode, but here we're leaning on Mandy for like, an actual, like, personal experience. So she's an expert in terms of her personal experience. Although I'm sure the science you sometimes comes out even in conversations that are personal. In fact, I know from experience in talking to you, it often overlaps. But, you know, we're leaning on you today for your personal experience, for sure.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: I mean, I can also. I was just really excited to lead with that because I've never offered that as my, like, here's my liner of who I am, so.
So thanks for giving me the space to do that. But, yeah, I mean, I obviously, I have a background in neuroscience and psychology.
I teach neuroscience and psychology at the university level and through my own company. And I also teach about the biology of sex and gender and homosexuality or bisexuality or sexuality in general.
And, you know, and I teach it all from a non binary perspective. And that's what I been doing for many, many years. And so this topic, all topics around sex and gender are very dear to me personally. And I think there's just lots of education and awareness that, you know, the general public can benefit from to create a more inclusive experience for everybody. So.
[00:02:52] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: Heck yeah. Well, it kind of goes into our first question for you really nicely. So belonging is, I mean, it's such an important part of everyone's life. And as queer people, you know, we often lean more heavily into wanting to feel like we belong to our community. But bisexual people often struggle with this more than others because of the exclusion and rejection that they can experience from being seen as not queer enough.
Not my opinion. But this is, you know, some common tropes in the, in the queer community. Um, and perhaps not straight enough from the straight community. A bit of a double edged sword there. Um, can you maybe tell us about some of your experiences and challenges with this?
[00:03:38] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I definitely have, uh, I definitely feel not queer enough, like, you know, on a daily basis when I'm reflecting on it. Um, and I've struggled with that in different times, but, you know, I've been lucky to get to have conversations with people who, in my eyes, are more queer. And I put that with quotes who have, like, embraced me in and made me feel like, you know, everyone is queer enough. And I, and I know that there are some people, some queer folk who don't actually, you know, recognize everyone as being queer. And it comes from both ends of that. But, you know, being bisexual, I definitely feel that, you know, it's, I mean, it gets into the idea of indecisiveness that I'll hold off for a second, but, yeah, that we're just, we're not, it's not recognized. And I think especially when you're bisexual in a hetero relationship. So I am in a monogamous relationship with a mandev, this man. And so I'm presenting very hetero. And, you know, I find that. I find that the most challenging because then I don't feel queer enough when I present out to everyone else. And so I often find myself trying to insert in conversations like, oh, like I'm queer. I identify as that, or I'm bisexual, or I've been with a woman and, you know, all of those things just to like to get it out there, because I actually, I think I'm a very open and transparent person. And what feels more awkward to me is when I don't get to share parts of me that are important. And I feel like my bisexuality is an important part of my identity. And so I feel very awkward when it's contained and I'm closed off from that. And I actually think that I feel more awkward with that hidden, like that sort of like elephant in the room, I guess. I don't know if that's the right term to say that, but, you know, when it's hidden as opposed to the blank stares that I can sometimes get if I lob that out there. So, you know, definitely it's not always received well when I say that, although very rarely, but I'd rather lob something out like, I'm bisexual and have people be surprised or shocked as opposed to me hiding it away because that feels more uncomfortable to me. So. So that's part of my attempt at belongingness, is to lock things out and see what kind of response I get.
[00:06:15] Speaker B: Because you're kind of opening a door every time you do that because we really never know the company we're in or where other people are in their experiences. And just by virtue of you kind of saying that and opening that door, then I don't know if this has happened. But I'm sure it opens up the opportunity for other people to share their experience or be seen by you in those instances.
[00:06:37] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:06:38] Speaker C: It's either a moment where you realize those people are welcoming and a part of your community, or the opposite. Right. So you might actually find, like maybe you end up finding two other bisexual friends who are also in straight presenting, you know, relationships. Or maybe you find out that they're a little uncomfortable about that and those aren't your people.
[00:06:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:59] Speaker C: Like, you're kind of. You're finding your answer either way.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I would say, you know, more often than not lobbing it out, I do find someone who now is open to share their experiences. Or now we found this, like allyship or whatever, that is definitely more common. And this happens when I say talk about my sexuality or when I talk about gender, when I use the pronouns they. I do this in class. I start my class with trying to get these things out there so that students then feel more at ease and they've told me that they feel more at ease and they're more comfortable knowing what my identity is and that they may relate in some way to their professor instead of me seeming like this very distant person. So it definitely, you know, creates that, that space. So it's been mostly like 99% positive when I do share that. So.
[00:07:55] Speaker C: There are a lot of misconceptions around bisexuality too. And you mentioned one before about being indecisive.
There's the idea that you're not able to be monogamous or that maybe it's just a phase or a stepping stone to some other sort of queer identity.
Have you experienced any of these personally or any others that I haven't mentioned?
[00:08:15] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I remember the.
So I was in my thirties, early thirties when I came out as bisexual, and I was in a relationship with a woman, like we were. I had had other experiences, but this was like a full on relationship and I was excited to tell people, actually. So I told my family, and it was fairly easy to tell them, but I told my best friend from home, and I was living in Halifax at the time, my best friend from home. We weren't very close anymore, but we stayed in touch. And so I thought, I need to tell her because this is something she needs to know. And she was the first person to say, like, you know, she just kept questioning me, like, what do you mean? And I said, well, I'm, you know, I'm with a woman now. And she's like, so you're a lesbian? And I'm like, well, no. And I really didn't feel like I was going to be exclusive. Like, that label didn't feel right for me. And so I kept trying to say, you know, oh, it's the person and stuff. But, you know, I was like, I think I'm bisexual. And she's like, well, no, like, if you're with a woman now, then you must be a lesbian. And she was just so hard on me, and I was taken back because I wasn't expecting that at all, I think because I was naively so excited and, you know, I was with among a lot of people who were out, and so it was a very welcoming environment when I came out, but so I didn't really expect that. And I was like, oh, wow, they're going to make me pick a side. And I'm like, I don't really want to pick a side. And, you know, and I think for some people, being, like, using the term bisexual can be a gateway to become or to identify as, you know, lesbian or gay or whatever. But for some people, it is like, that's where they're gonna stay. And so I guess I understand a bit how that can be confusing for other people as they watch us go through a process. But I, but it's not indecisiveness now. I mean, I'm 48, and I still fully feel like I would be happy to be in a sexual relationship with a man or a woman.
And that's just how it is. I don't think that's gonna, you know, change.
[00:10:36] Speaker C: I guess it speaks to that kind of unwavering desire for people to put people into boxes, and there's, like, boy or girl, straight or queer, and it's like they kind of, that middle ground is still so uncomfortable for so many people. It's like this. It reflects the kind of rigidity around that zone in the middle that is very valid and on a spectrum. But I guess what's even more disappointing is when we see people within the queer community also expecting people to fit within that, which is where we get, you know, biphobia and stigma, even within the queer community as well.
[00:11:14] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
And I. Yeah, now that you say that, I'm sort of reflecting on, you know, some of the experiences that I've had from within the community as well. And I don't. I wouldn't say it's been as harsh as that for me personally. It's been more passive comments as opposed to, like, a direct, like, you know, attack on me. So, yeah, it's like, in passing, and.
[00:11:40] Speaker C: Then it, like, more judgment or more microaggression type stuff.
[00:11:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I remember, too, there was. I used to run an organization called body monologues, and we had this one person speak, Elena. You might have actually even been there at this one, or maybe it was before your time. But she. She talked about it as a hidden sexuality, and she was bisexual and also with a man. And I think she has since maintained a relationship with a guy.
And I loved that term hidden sexuality because that really was how I felt. And she just captured it so well with that. And I think it's more of a term that's used now. This was many years ago. Yeah, it is a kind of a hidden sexuality. And so I started to identify more with people who had other, like, the hidden inequities is like a whole other camp of places where we can experience inequity in life, like visible minority versus invisible minority. And I was like, okay, that makes sense. That's sort of where I'm at. So I can't relate to some of these experiences of a visible minority, but I can relate to it from a different perspective. So you end up also being in conversations where people say things because they have assumptions about your sexuality or, you know, your gender or whatever. And so you hear things that maybe other people don't always hear because people don't say things when they know they're in front of someone who is, like, you know, gay as opposed to bisexual.
[00:13:17] Speaker B: I think, too, even in a lot of queer spaces, there's. There can be assumption of either, like, gay or, like, bisexual. And, like, that is not like, we have a friend whose partner often speaks up and to say, no, my partner's bi. And I think that's so beautiful and maybe unfortunate that they have to do that, but it's also that, I mean, a product of where we are currently. And it just. Yeah, it's interesting to see it in queer spaces. And I think to what you said can be disappointing when, you know, we need to show up and be there for. Queer is kind of an umbrella term, and it is for everyone.
[00:14:02] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, Elena, you're talking about the. The rigid binary, and, you know, I really think we're breaking that down right now. Like, we're.
And some of us are doing it, you know, taking one for the team by doing that, but it's so present in so many realms. Like, even, you know, there's a kid at my kid's school who had switched pronouns and started using was born male, but then started using feminine pronouns later on. So in like, grade six or something. And now this year, they decided that they wanted to use they at school, but they want to go back to he when they're out in the world. And I don't know where it's going to land and no one really does, and that's fine. But, you know, I was just thinking, we have a very welcoming environment at this school, and I'm just so, like, how amazing is that, that these kids get to play with pronouns, play with gender, play with sexuality, because I know that's happening way. Like, that wasn't allowed when I was in school in the eighties. Like, we couldn't play.
[00:15:08] Speaker C: You.
[00:15:08] Speaker A: You picked something and that was it. And then you were stigmatized.
[00:15:12] Speaker B: You didn't even pick it.
[00:15:13] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:15:16] Speaker A: And I just think we're in such an amazing space right now to be able to break down this binary and start to play, and. And I think we're going to grow with our acceptance of that. But, you know, who cares, who cares what we. We choose? In the end, we get to play with that. Just like we play with hair color and we play with, like, the type of style our clothes are. And, you know, we don't really worry about that so much, but for some reason, we've worried about these, you know, what side of a sexuality spectrum you're on or gender spectrum, but, you know.
[00:15:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:15:46] Speaker C: I have a lot of faith in the younger generations, too. And actually, when I was looking up some stats and things about bisexuality, apparently more and more young people are identifying as bisexual when you look at it in terms of, like, generations. So maybe that's part of, you know, the progress there is that more people will identify as it, and it's going to become more and more common. Although it is still more stigmatized amongst men, there's a lot more women identifying as bisexual than men. So because there's more stigma around masculinity and things that are probably preventing a lot of men from admitting that and being open about it.
[00:16:22] Speaker B: Yeah. I think when you think about what kind of world you want to live in, it's like, of course we want to live in the one where there's room to change and grow and not have to decide what works in this moment. And maybe that doesn't work in another. I think a lot of the kind of fear or bad behavior in the queer community towards bisexuality really comes from a place of fear and this having to hold on tight and because of stigmatisms and often violence and different things that the queer community as a whole has had to fight so hard for. And so I think there's, I think it comes from that place and at least that's my hope and not an actual, like, deep seated.
[00:17:14] Speaker C: Yeah. I mean, sometimes if it's within a particular relationship, I think the insecurity comes from, let's say, you know, your partner is bi and maybe there's your own anxieties and insecure attachment, potentially, and you're worried you're going to be abandoned. They're just going to go back to their ex or to a man or like, so sometimes I think it just comes from scarcity. Yeah. And just like, their own insecurities about, it's not necessarily about that person, but it gets projected onto that person.
Yeah. Okay. What are some of the biggest challenges of being a bisexual person in a straight presenting partnership? And you touched on this a little bit, but are there any other ways that you are able to express and make your queerness more visible? I know you've talked about it in the past, but are there even things moving forward that you're thinking, like, maybe I'll do this, or maybe this is another way?
[00:18:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
This question stumps me.
I don't know. I mean, I think in a few years I'll be able to consider this more. Like, right now, I mean, even as an example.
Like, my partner and I, we are in a monogamous relationship, but, you know, we've explored the idea of being Polly or that I might be poly, but practically speaking, right now, it's just like, we don't have time. Like, there's, it's not possible.
We have a young child, you know? Yeah, I've got work to do. Like, there's just, I don't have time for all that. And I never had time for that when I was younger either. Like, I was, you know, always in monogamous relationships. There was one summer where I wasn't and it was like a hectic summer, you know, so I don't know that that's, like, fully where I might go, but, but I'm open to exploring those types of things because I do feel like, you know, the challenge is that, you know, I do feel like I'm missing one element of it. Like, I, I mean, I like having sex with women. Like, it is great.
And so I don't right now, because we're in a monogamous relationship, I don't do that. But I love that I have a very supportive partner. He engages these conversations with me. He entertains, you know, where I'm at. He knew me when I was in my relationship, you know, my long term relationship with a, a woman. So he knows. He knows me and he's supportive and also, like, open to talking about stuff. And he knew from the beginning that I was going to challenge him with non conventional ideas. And he's totally okay with that, even when he's not.
[00:19:58] Speaker C: Are you comfortable telling us a bit about how you and him handle crushes?
[00:20:03] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I mean, that is how we, like, we've always done that. And, like, I have lots of crushes, so I enjoy, I enjoy my crushes very much. And, like, and that's, you know, I was reading, I followed Devon Price. I don't know if you know who he is, but he's. Yeah, so he's a neurodiverse trans man and also a psychologist. He has a PhD in social psychology. So I love, like, I. His perspective. And he really, like, you know, pushes the boundaries on a lot of things. And, and he was talking about, like, how that's a, like, very fair way. I mean, of course, everything's fair, but, like, a very valid, amazing way to express your, like, queerness within a relationship is to have these crushes. And I read that and I was, like, so affirmed because, like, in a lot of ways, I felt like it was just like, oh, this is just, like, you know, trivial. I just have these crushes. But then I was reading his writing on, I'm like, oh, actually, that is my way of expressing my queerness. Like, I want to have these crushes. I want to fantasize in my mind about them and feel it in my body. I feel those crushes and those crushes I've had since I was little, since I was a kid, not knowing what they meant when I had that crush on a girl. I knew what it meant when I had a crush on a boy, but I didn't know what it meant when I had a crush on a girl.
I mean, even as an example, like, I don't know if I shared this before anywhere, but my first sexual experience was with a girl. Like, it was. We were in grade six and we were having sex. And I never put it into the camp of having sex because I thought it was with a girl, and we were just experimenting. And, you know, that's kind of what we kept it quiet. We never told anybody. But it wasn't until I was 30 and I was, like, coming out as bisexual, I'm like, oh, my first time having sex was not when I was 14 with a boy. It was when I was twelve with a girl. And that same feeling comes up all the time. So it's like, I'm so attracted to women, and I need to express that. I need to look at them and feel that I need to engage with them intellectually.
But for now, it's not. We haven't gone physical. I haven't gone beyond that because of the practicality of time.
[00:22:25] Speaker C: I was going to say that, honestly, the communication between Mandy and her partner and the crushes, as well as other things, is real relationship goal stuff, too, because I love, isn't it? Don't you have a two week period, too, where you can just enjoy it before you tell your partner about the crush?
[00:22:41] Speaker A: Yes. Yes.
[00:22:42] Speaker C: Because I love that it's just yours for two weeks, and then you open up about it and discuss it.
[00:22:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And the big reason for that was because I used to tell the crush too soon, and then it was gone. Because then it's not this, like, fun thing that I get to explore. So I was like, can we have, like, a two week period where we don't tell about the crush so we can enjoy it and then we'll. We'll tell it, and, uh. And every time, as soon as I, like, I tell it, the crush kind of, like, dwindle. So I'm like, okay, I might need to, like, expand that to, like, a month or something.
[00:23:16] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:23:16] Speaker B: That's. That's such a beautiful way, though, for your partner to validate your queerness, and I love that.
[00:23:22] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: Mandy, are you game for a listener question?
[00:23:28] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness.
[00:23:30] Speaker B: Okay, cool.
Okay.
Hi, dear queer. I'm a bi female and want to know if you think it's really worth coming out as bisexual if you're in a queer. I'm gonna start that back. I am a bi female and want to know if you think it's really worth coming out as bisexual if you're in a committed hetero relationship. Obviously, yes. To your partner. But what about family, friends and the like? Not doing this doesn't really feel authentic and truthful. But at the same time, is it worth it if you're not intending to date same sex people?
[00:24:08] Speaker A: So do I answer this first?
[00:24:11] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely, if you'd like to speak to it because, I mean, it's something, you know, every queer person goes through. Like, who do I tell who's that we're sharing? Obviously, you can stay hidden potentially if you're in a straight presenting relationship. So. Yeah. What's your take on that?
[00:24:27] Speaker A: I think in an ideal world where there's like, it's a safe environment and there's like, you know, very few consequences, negative consequences absolutely come out. You're, you're presenting more transparently and openly and authentically. You're also creating a nice environment, a more welcoming environment for other people to come out like, you know, siblings or nibblings or, you know, whoever might come out. But so in an ideal world, but that's not always the case for everybody. And so I, you know, it's always balancing. Like, is it worth coming out, you know, if it doesn't change the circumstances? But there's going to be a lot of consequences to it. Like, is there going to be a lot of harshness from the family? Like, you know, we always have to balance that. And, you know, every individual's situation is different. But, but it sounds like this person asking the question, it must feel like it's a safe enough environment that they're just actually asking, is it worth it? Like, what's the benefit of coming out if I'm not going to act on it? And I think there are lots of benefits to coming out if you're not acting on it because you never know how you can act on it in a way that works with your existing relationship. Like, you know, the crushes that I just talked about or reading or watching different content, like, you know, there's many ways. And I think if we have an opportunity to be authentic, take it, and then that creates a ripple, and then you never know where it's going to go from there.
[00:26:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, you know, obviously putting safety into consideration is, is paramount. And, you know, we're, you know, I don't know if this person lives in a, in a privileged place where they feel like they can do that safely, but what I can say is, like, in my personal opinion, it's like the more people who are out, the more beautiful and accepting our society becomes. And it's just like, it's like what an opportunity to share yourself and also probably be validated in your queer experience. And, yeah, I think to what you said about, you never know who's watching and who's listening, so it's also an opportunity to kind of extend that olive branch back to your community and family and friends. So, yeah, always hopeful for that.
[00:26:54] Speaker C: Anything we missed?
[00:26:54] Speaker A: Well, I just want to add to that because I think that, like, I'm. I try to be very vocal about my experiences and, you know, I was talking about lobbying things out and stuff because I do come from a privileged space. I've been very fortunate to not have anyone throw me out, you know, say they don't love me, anything, abuse me, nothing. I haven't had those experiences. And so I do feel like it's. I need to use that privilege to create the space. So because I've been given this, I need to use my voice, I need to share it. I need to take the small hits that I might experience to create a safer environment for everyone else. So we often talk about how to use our privilege. We have privilege. That's just the way life is in this day and age. So if we have privilege, we need to use that. And this could be an environment situation. Or I would say for me, it'd be a situation where I could use my privilege to be more vocal. And I think, again, that's why it's not. It depends on the individual situations, but if we have privilege, we should consider using it.
[00:28:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:28:02] Speaker B: And being queer is the best, and the community is so fun. And maybe you'll get invited to things that you wouldn't have otherwise been invited to.
[00:28:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: Shout out to the queer bars and organizations in Toronto.
[00:28:15] Speaker C: Yeah. And everywhere.
Well, thank you, Mandy. Thank you so much. I mean, maybe we'll end up doing another episode, bisexuality and bi visibility, who knows? Because we do want to contribute to this. Maybe this is the first of a series. We'll see. Thank you for listening to another episode of Dear Queer. We'll see you again in two weeks.
[00:28:36] Speaker B: Bye bye.
[00:28:41] Speaker C: She had to do it.
[00:28:42] Speaker B: This has been another episode of Dear Queer. Just a reminder, we are not actually experts. Any advice given should actually come from our experts, who we will bring in from time to time. Music brought to you. Bye. Sean Patrick Brennan, produced by myself, Lauren Hogarth, and your host, as always, Elena Papienis.
I'm getting that.
