People Pleasing

[00:00:00] Speaker A: I thought that coming out would be, like the deepest layer I would go to. And then maybe three years after that, I realized I was a people pleaser. And that was. That was the deeper layer that had kept me closeted, like, even to myself. If you have a question, I know you can take me out of your just be today on the pod we're talking about. Oh, wait, sorry, did you want to. [00:00:38] Speaker B: Oh, no, actually, you, you know, it's okay. No, I insist. [00:00:43] Speaker A: Please. You guessed it. We're talking about people pleasing. About four years ago, I realized that I was a people pleaser. I was freshly broken up with and reflecting on how the relationship had unfolded and devolved and then ended. I felt emotionally dizzy, like I had just been spun around in circles. I began to see how much I had twisted myself into different shapes for her. Not because she asked me to, but because I thought I should. I thought I needed to. I'd been constantly calculating who I should be in order for her to like me. Her approval and validation mattered too much to me. I looked back at how I'd always behaved in relationships, not just with her. How I'd shrunk myself down, made myself disappear, deferred. The smaller the better, I thought, the less likely to be pushed away or abandoned. This was faulty logic. I know that now. The term people pleaser popped into my head one day as I was reflecting. I googled it and immediately saw myself in the list of characteristics that popped up. Being overly nice, not having any needs, having a hard time saying no. It was a depressing realization. I felt sad for the kid version of me, who at some point had determined that this was the person she needed to be in order to be loved. A chameleon and shapeshifter. As a result, I didn't actually know myself, because when you're willing to be anyone, you're also no one. Although it's hard to recognize myself now in that person, I call myself a recovering people pleaser. I like to compare these old peoplepleasing behaviors to vestigial organs, which are organs that we don't need anymore, like the appendix or tonsils, but they're still there, barely serving a function, and more often than not, actually causing problems. I don't need to people please anymore, but maybe it will always be at least some small part of me. [00:02:52] Speaker B: That was intro. [00:02:55] Speaker A: I know that was a kind of a doozy. Honestly, I could have written something that went on forever about people pleasing. It's so near and dear to my heart. [00:03:06] Speaker B: The appendix piece really hit home for me. [00:03:09] Speaker A: Do you have your appendix out? [00:03:10] Speaker B: It's gone. And, boy, do you feel it when it's unhappy, even though you don't need it, which is wild. [00:03:16] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the thing, right? It's like these things that evolution hasn't gotten rid of yet and we still hold onto them. They're still kind of there. [00:03:25] Speaker B: Yeah. We've got Dylan popping in, I think, to help us with some of the people pleasing questions and, yeah, I think we should just dive right into some questions. [00:03:34] Speaker A: What are you doing? [00:03:35] Speaker B: I've got one. Hi there. I'm a queer woman from Toronto. [00:03:39] Speaker A: Local. [00:03:41] Speaker B: I find myself people pleasing even on first dates. I'll go out with someone and know it's not going anywhere by the end of the date. And yet I find myself being overly engaging and maybe even leading them on a little bit. On my last date, they asked if I wanted to hang out again, and I said I'd love to without even thinking, when I know I don't. Our community is small and I don't want to burn any bridges, but I can't seem to help it in the moment. I've even gone on more dates when I know there isn't a connection. [00:04:16] Speaker A: Yikes. I feel this person's discomfort. I can feel it through however they submitted it. So it sounds like they are uncomfortable with the other person's discomfort in the sense that they don't want to admit, for example, that there's not a connection. Probably because they're worried about the other person's feelings, which is key. People pleasing territory. [00:04:43] Speaker B: This person knows they're a people pleaser by that question. [00:04:46] Speaker A: Yes, they must know, but they're clearly kind of fighting. That instinct is still so strong. [00:04:50] Speaker B: Totally. [00:04:51] Speaker A: But they don't know how to undo it just yet, or are too afraid of the discomfort that they're going to feel when they start being more honest. It'll feel uncomfortable at first in being just honest, and it's not honest in a cruel way. It's honest in a matter of fact way. Like, hey, pleasure, like, lovely meeting you. But this isn't the connection that I'm looking for. [00:05:17] Speaker B: You've told me some good ones of just dropping in that friend, or I think having something in your pocket when you feel it going towards that, that you can just pull out. [00:05:29] Speaker A: Well, the thing with the friend thing, though, is that if you're going to say, I'd love to be friends, I truly believe you have to mean it. Oh, my gosh. [00:05:41] Speaker B: This is still me. People pleasing. I'm like, trying to oh my gosh. [00:05:45] Speaker A: I call that a friend fake. [00:05:46] Speaker B: We are doing this in real time, folks. I'm discovering my people. [00:05:50] Speaker A: Please. I call that a friend fake. You can say, great to meet you. I just don't feel a connection here. Best of luck into your dating, I'm sure I'll see you around kind of thing. [00:05:59] Speaker B: Best wishes. [00:06:00] Speaker A: Well, not best of luck, best of luck. I'm sure I'll see you around or whatever. Or like, great meeting you and I'm sure I'll see you at events. I truly feel that if you're going to say I'd love to be friends, then you really need to mean that you actually want to be friends with them and follow up and actually be friends. Because there's the difference between being friends and being friendly, right. And probably what they want is just to be friendly with that person. [00:06:26] Speaker B: Because the community, like they said, is small. You're going to bump into them at some event, some friend's house, whatever. [00:06:34] Speaker A: And there's no hurt meant when you just say it's not the connection for you or you just didn't feel the connection you're looking for. Whatever, however you phrase it, it's not a personal thing. It's just. Or I mean, there could be other circumstances that make you incompatible, but you don't have to go into detail. It can just be a matter of saying that it's not what you're looking for. But I'm like a strong believer in not friend faking. [00:07:02] Speaker B: Honestly too. It will save you time in the long run and future awkward conversation. [00:07:10] Speaker A: And this is a huge thing that people pleasers also have to remember is that you have to go through that short term discomfort in order to get the long term benefits. Because if you don't, then you are just suffering long term. [00:07:24] Speaker B: Totally. Yeah, I think you nailed that. [00:07:26] Speaker A: Okay. [00:07:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:28] Speaker A: What else did I want to say about that? Anything. [00:07:30] Speaker B: Also, they said in the date that they kind of be overly engaging, leading someone on. I think reframing that in their brains as like a disservice to them. Then the rug is getting pulled out from under them. [00:07:45] Speaker A: Totally. I think they need to be just as they would be. Like, you don't have to go over the top to make them feel happy or comfortable. And that's the over nice thing that people pleasers do as well. If you identify yourself as a nice person versus a kind person, there's a high probability that you're a people pleaser because nice. This is another thing I feel very strongly about and I've written about nice is superficial for the most part, and nice is not honest. Kind is honest, and there's a difference. And you can be a kind person, but still tell someone you're not interested or. You know what I mean? But the nice is feeling the immediate reaction to say, yes, I'd love to. I had a great time. Right. That's that facade where you're uncomfortable with the discomfort that's about to happen, so you avoid it. [00:08:36] Speaker B: And honestly, it's not that nice to give someone a false sense of the date. So if you really want to please someone, maybe, yeah. [00:08:46] Speaker A: Tell them the truth. Tell them the truth. [00:08:48] Speaker B: We're getting the tough love here today. Just, you got to do it. [00:08:53] Speaker A: Got to do it. Rip the bandaid off. [00:08:54] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:08:55] Speaker A: Okay. [00:08:55] Speaker B: I think this is a good opportunity to check in with our resident expert, Dylan, on some people pleasing questions from a relational psychotherapist perspective. Am I saying that right? Dylan, chime in. [00:09:11] Speaker C: You got it. Yeah, you absolutely got it. I'm a relational psychotherapist. That's my thing. [00:09:18] Speaker A: We're so excited to talk to you. Obviously, we're not therapists. We're not experts. We're coming from our own experience and those of people we know. So we're very excited to have your expert lens applied to all the things we're talking about. So thank you. [00:09:35] Speaker C: Of course. [00:09:36] Speaker A: So I know from my own experience as a recovering people pleaser how I would define it. But how would you define or describe people pleasing? [00:09:45] Speaker C: So, for me, I feel like, at its core, people pleasing is a preoccupation with being perceived by others in a positive light, to put it as simply as I possibly can. [00:09:57] Speaker A: Right, absolutely. And so what are some common behaviors you would associate, then, with people pleasing? [00:10:03] Speaker C: Absolutely. Conflict avoidance is a big one. So usually a kind of acquiescence or an excessive fear of being the target of anger or displeasure, the discomfort that that brings, constantly trying to keep that at bay. I would also say code switching is in there. This kind of tendency to read the room to determine your behavior or which parts of yourself are welcome and which you should hide. Part of that also being a kind of responsive versus assertive way of showing up in interactions with people, where you're kind of following their lead rather than having the freedom to just show up as you are. I think the underbelly of all of it is really just fear and anxiety. [00:11:04] Speaker A: And there's been times when, I don't know when this shift happened, but even in things like professional settings, whereas before I would do that kind of code switching, that chameleon like stuff, that shape shifting where I felt afraid to speak up, say something, because I was worried about how it would be perceived. And at some point that shifted, though, and it feels great to just speak and not have those kind of questions ahead of time and worries and fears around. Like, well, how's this going to land? So that really spoke to me. That kind of, rather than being reactive, responsive to what's there, actually standing in your own voice and truth and not worrying kind of what other people are going to think. [00:11:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:11:53] Speaker A: Okay, next question. Why is people pleasing so detrimental to our relationships, both relationships to other people and to ourselves? [00:12:04] Speaker C: I mean, people pleasing can allow you to get by in a lot of situations, in a lot of relationships, you could people please your way to the end of your life. But the problem is that it hinders authenticity. And we need authenticity in order to form fulfilling relationships, in order to enjoy ourselves in relationship to other people. So you're kind of taking the path of least resistance, but in doing so, depriving yourself of a lot of really rich experience. [00:12:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, the cost is really great to just kind of get by and live that way. [00:12:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:12:49] Speaker A: And Lauren and I were talking about this before a little bit, and it speaks to what you were saying to this. I think there's an issue of trust there, too. Like, if I'm people pleasing, worried about what you're going to think, just being nice rather than being honest with you. [00:13:05] Speaker C: Exactly. It reminds me of how a lot of people pleasers at one point or another, get called fake. And there's something like, there's this accusation, right. Of kind of like deception or untrustworthiness. And it's sad because it's not an intentional sort of malicious deception. It's actually a terrified, self protective deception. So there's a nuance there that I think it really helps to be aware of when we're talking about fakeness or performativity or what is going on for the person is important. [00:13:44] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:13:45] Speaker B: That's got to be like a people pleasers worst nightmare, too, to be like. [00:13:49] Speaker A: Total thought fake or like. [00:13:51] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:13:52] Speaker A: Yes. That'd be mortifying, right. [00:13:56] Speaker B: As a recovering or continue in recovery people pleaser, I'm like, wait, they think I'm fake? [00:14:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:04] Speaker C: Right. Not only have you failed in your people pleasing, but now you are the target of hatred and all the scary things that we're trying to avoid. [00:14:14] Speaker A: Totally people pleasing. And you're right in it, I should say, too. [00:14:17] Speaker B: This is also our therapy, having Dylan here. [00:14:21] Speaker A: You can call us out. [00:14:23] Speaker C: Yeah, I have an ex. People pleaser. Recovering. People pleaser. Relaxing. [00:14:29] Speaker A: People pleaser relaxing sometimes too. [00:14:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:33] Speaker A: Okay. So that leads me to the next question, though. How can we change these behaviors, these people pleasing tendencies? [00:14:40] Speaker C: The million dollar question. [00:14:41] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:43] Speaker C: So the thing is, people pleasing originates in relational wounds, and relational wounds require relational healing. So you can't think your way out of people pleasing. You can't promise yourself to end people pleasing and find success with that. You need a safe, expansive, and permissive relationship in order to try and change while being able to get it wrong, while being able to fall back into old ways. There needs to be that kind of. That safety and that allowance and someone who can actually hear you and understand you in your journey of people pleasing and wanting to shift into something a little bit more brave and authentic. [00:15:42] Speaker A: Totally. [00:15:44] Speaker C: And that can be hard to find, but also so invaluable when we do. [00:15:52] Speaker A: And a sense of awareness comes along with that too. Right? Like, let's say I am in the middle of a conflict with a partner or someone I'm dating, and I end up fawning and just deferring or being scared of their anger, then being able to say afterwards, like, I see what I did there, this is why I did that. Let's have a better plan for next time, how we deal with conflict. And like you said, that kind of permissive or that grace, that they can also allow us to understand where we're coming from and why we might tend towards those things. [00:16:25] Speaker C: Yes. And discovering that safety and that ability to speak to your own experience, it takes time. Early stages of relationships are so hard for people pleasers. For this very reason, the stakes feel high. The interactions can be scary. The wondering what the other person is thinking about you is taking up a lot of space in your brain. Your body is dysregulated. Your nervous system is dysregulated. You're fighting an uphill battle. So it's a process, and it requires some patience and gentleness with yourself. [00:17:00] Speaker A: Now, queerness can also, especially if you're newly out, maybe that can kind of make you worry more about fitting in or belonging. Do you think there's any dangers there that might kind of make us more prone in those stages to people pleasing? [00:17:15] Speaker C: Yes, 100%. As queer people. The vast majority of us grow up learning that there are core parts of ourself that we didn't decide were there, but are there nonetheless that are not safe to show all the time or to all people? We learn really young to hide these things, to read the room. As I was talking about before to determine how we can and can't show up. We're told that this part of you is unwelcome. This part of you is disgusting. This part of you is laughable. Whatever. These kind of lessons that were taught are either from, you know, family or school or just general culture that gets integrated deep and early. So I think there's a huge correlation between people pleasing and queerness. It's something that a lot of queer people struggle with that just reminded me. [00:18:21] Speaker A: Of one thing, and then we're going to move on. I thought that coming out would be, like the deepest layer I would go to. And then maybe three years after that, I realized I was a people pleaser. And that was the deeper layer that had kept me closeted, like, even to myself, because, again, that kind of disconnection and inauthenticity was just so deeply rooted. So, yeah, it goes deep. It goes deep. [00:18:44] Speaker C: Yeah, it goes real deep. [00:18:45] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:48] Speaker B: You ready for another one? [00:18:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:18:50] Speaker B: Okay. This is about their job. [00:18:52] Speaker A: Okay? [00:18:54] Speaker B: I'm the one at the office that everyone goes to when they need something finished. I'm always covering for others and just can't say no. This could just be a whole episode. [00:19:07] Speaker A: On saying, yeah, seriously, I can feel this person's building resentment for her. I can feel it. Because you can just tell from even that small question that how many times is it she or they or do we know? Okay. You can just tell how many times they have been asked just in that small amount. Right? Yeah. So it's constant. I have the sense that people are asking because they know that this person won't say no. [00:19:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:37] Speaker A: So they have established a reputation as someone who can't say no in the office. And maybe a little bit of over committing. Yes, a little bit of overcommitting and not checking in with themselves to see, can I really do this? Maybe some guilt around saying no, which should never be the guide that we listen to the most when we're answering to someone's request. We can admit that, okay, I might feel guilty if I say no, but then you still have to say no. That shouldn't mean, well, then I better say yes, because if you say a dishonest yes, then you are going to resent someone at that point. You might be angry at yourself, you'll resent other people, but it's not really fair to resent those other people because you said yes, and they had no way to know that you didn't want to say yes because you said yes. So if you're not being honest, it's not really fair to then hold the other people accountable for that because it's only yourself you can hold accountable for that. [00:20:39] Speaker B: Totally cool, short and sweet. [00:20:42] Speaker A: I love it. [00:20:43] Speaker B: Okay, I wonder if we could just talk about too. You talked a bit in your opening about kind of twisting yourself into shapes and stuff like that. When was that coming up for you? Is it in dating? Is it in work? Is it in home with friends? Or where do you find those big kind of, now that, you know, establisher people pleaser? Where are those people pleasing alarms going off? [00:21:07] Speaker A: I think it all comes down to the fact that when you are people pleasing, you are more concerned with what other, other people think about you than you should be. And so first and foremost, you're thinking, well, what are they going to think about me if I do this? What are they going to think about me if I say this? Are they going to think I'm not nice? Are they going to think I'm unattractive? Are they going to think, right, so you're constantly calculating, like, who do I need to be here right now, in this moment? Or for these people, or for this person? I remember noticing a shift at work where suddenly I wasn't doing that. [00:21:43] Speaker B: I've so been that person in past relationships where I was really, really good at intuiting partners needs and what they wanted. And it's like you do it so many times, you're just doing these little things over time that's like, okay, I know they want this, so I'm going to say this. And it's so much mental gymnastics. [00:22:08] Speaker A: Totally. [00:22:09] Speaker B: And once you let that go, oh, my gosh, it's so much easier. I had to keep track of the things I had said when I was trying to think about, oh, they want this, so I'm going to say that. [00:22:21] Speaker A: Totally. [00:22:21] Speaker B: And then if it's not your truth, then it's like you have to remember that thing you said, totally. [00:22:26] Speaker A: That wasn't you, who you were pretending to be at that time. Totally. [00:22:30] Speaker B: And yeah, it took time, but then it's like once you do it more and more, it's so much easier. [00:22:39] Speaker A: It is so much easier. [00:22:41] Speaker B: It's just so much easier to be. You're in your authentic self and not trying to think like twelve steps ahead. [00:22:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, that definitely happens the most in romantic dynamics or dating, too, because you're doing that especially in the early stages. You might be like, okay, well, who do I need to be for them to like me? Rather than reframing it as like, this is who I am. Do I like them? Yes. Are we compatible? It's truly a reframing from a focus on other people to a focus on yourself and the kind of security and just standing in who you are and what you like and what you don't like and not thinking because as a people pleaser, you want to be the same thing as that other person. They like that. You want to like that because you believe that that's going to bring you closer to that person, when in fact, there's nothing more annoying and off putting than someone just being exactly like you and catering to you and wanting to morph into the same. You know what I mean? That's actually a very unattractive thing because it just becomes obvious at a certain point that you're kind of willing to bend in any direction and don't have any kind of stability of your own. [00:24:01] Speaker B: This is, like, a small example, but I think of something as simple as, like, picking a restaurant in the early days. Absolutely. When you're just like, you pick, you pick. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. If the person I was going on, Dan, was like, hey, there's this awesome restaurant I love. [00:24:16] Speaker A: Yes. [00:24:17] Speaker B: I'm like, oh, heck, yeah. [00:24:19] Speaker A: Let me learn about you. Totally. Yeah. That kind of indecision. And I have such a history of being indecisive. It used to be an inside joke all the time with me about basically not being able to make a decision. And that's also something that gets easier the less you people please. Because I was indecisive, partly because I was worried about what other people would think about my decision. Do they not like that? Does that mean that they won't like me if they don't also like that thing that I like? And it's exhausting. Like you said, even just thinking back to it, I'm thinking about how mentally and emotionally tiring it is because you're just trying so hard. Trying so hard. And you don't have to try that hard. You just need to be yourself. Yeah. [00:25:08] Speaker B: And if you wanted to date yourself, then you're probably a narcissist. [00:25:11] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true. That will be another episode. [00:25:17] Speaker B: This episode is so well paired with our boundaries episode, which, if you haven't listened, go take a listen. Because it's like once you start not people pleasing and listening and tuning into yourself, it gets easier. And you're actually inviting people in the same way when you set a. [00:25:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:38] Speaker B: Okay, so Dylan has identified for who and what makes a people pleaser for folks. The light bulbs are going off. What are just a couple quick kind of takeaways for someone who's trying to not bring people pleasing to maybe their dating life or dating life in general. [00:26:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, just start first. Just start by tuning into that instinct. When I first realized I was a people pleaser, I was like, an investigative journalist of myself, or like, I was like, a scientific study of my own. Literally, I'd hold the door open for someone who was super far away, and then afterwards be like, okay, did I just want to seem like a really nice person? [00:26:31] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. [00:26:31] Speaker A: Like, literally, I was like, did I go out of my way there just so that I would appear nice? So I was probably nitpicking too much, but it really opened my eyes to be like, it was just freeing in the sense to be like, I don't have to be this person to realize that people pleasing isn't who you are. It has been a role in behaviors that you have been playing for whatever reason that you figured when you were a kid that that was the person you needed to be. So it's a very freeing thing to kind of separate who you are from a people pleaser. And it's important to make that distinction, to be like, okay, this isn't who I am. These are behaviors that I tend towards. And then once you are able to separate that, you can then ask yourself, well, who am I then? What do I like? What are my values? That was one thing that I had that I was also trying to write down, or I talked to friends, and it was really frustrating because I remember one friend being like, I was like, okay, what are my values? What are my top, like, three or five values? I need to figure this out, because, again, about having that stability in yourself, if you know what your values are, you're not going to bend in all these directions to take on other people's values, right? And so I tried to establish, what are my values? And I remember asking a friend at one point, and she's like, I know what your values are. I can tell you. And I was like, why can you tell me? And I'm trying to write this stuff down. I don't even know what my values are yet. [00:28:03] Speaker B: You're doing, like, a book report on yourself, and you're like, I actually haven't cracked the page yet. [00:28:08] Speaker A: Yeah. And then other people are like, I have the answer. I know what you value. I know you well enough. And I'm like, really? The first thing is to settle on, separate who you are from the people pleaser. Realize that's not fundamentally who you are and then start to figure out who you actually are. And I was quite sad for a while. This sent me into a full on spiritual kind of breakdown and then also awakening. So there's a positive side to it. But I was really sad over this realization that I was like, fuck. This poor kid thought she needed to be like this. [00:28:47] Speaker B: Wait, what's wrong, though, with being nice? Are we saying don't be nice? [00:28:50] Speaker A: No, be kind. [00:28:51] Speaker B: Right? [00:28:53] Speaker A: You don't have to be nice. You have to be kind. But it's even about being small. People pleasing is a very small way to be right. You defer. You just do what someone else wants to do. You like what other people want to like. It's a very small existence, and that's no way to live. [00:29:11] Speaker B: Well, thanks, Alana. This has been really helpful. [00:29:13] Speaker A: Thank you. I mean, I could talk about people pleasing for days. So maybe we should do another episode down the road. [00:29:19] Speaker B: Yeah, we can come back to all things. Don't forget to find us in all the places. If you've liked what you've heard these last few episodes, please share with your friends and, yeah, do all the things. This has been other episode of Dear Queer. Just a reminder, we are not actually experts. Any advice given should actually come from our experts, who we will bring in from time to time. Music brought to you by Sean Patrick Brennan. Produced by myself, Lauren Hogarth, and your host, as always, Elena Papianas. [00:29:52] Speaker A: I'm getting that.