Boundaries

[00:00:00] Speaker A: And in that way, it's less about you not trusting your partner, and it's more about you trying to just reinforce the partnership that you have with them. If you have a question, I love you. You can trust me. You today on Dear Queer, we're talking about boundaries with some expert advice from Dylan Catrice. When I first realized that I was a people pleaser, I read a lot of self help books, and they all told me the same thing, that I should set boundaries. But there was a huge problem with this solution, which was that I had no idea what a boundary was. I was familiar with physical boundaries, like the lines on a map between countries, but even those were arbitrary and crossed all the time. I couldn't think of a single example of a personal boundary that I could set. So I texted a friend and asked her for an example of a boundary. In her reply, she reminded me of her history of terrible relationships where she very clearly had no boundaries. I felt defeated. I couldn't even ask the right person for help with boundaries. I also didn't understand why I would ever want to set one. Boundaries felt like a wall obstacle to connection, and I only ever craved closeness and intimacy. Boundaries felt like distance to me. But I've come a long way since then, both in understanding the need for boundaries and in setting them. Although I still struggle sometimes, I've set some difficult ones recently, one in particular pained me because it meant not having someone in my life that I would have loved to have there. But I knew it wouldn't be good for me. Setting that boundary was something I never would have been able to do a few years ago. Setting that boundary was me choosing myself. After years of abandoning myself for other people, setting that boundary was me finally loving myself so much. [00:02:19] Speaker B: Comes back to boundaries. I know in your opening essay you're talking about relationships and setting up boundaries. It's like so many parts of our lives come back to those boundaries and how we set them. Are you ready to just. Do you want to just dive into some questions? [00:02:37] Speaker A: Yeah, let's do it. [00:02:38] Speaker B: Okay. So let's see here. Okay, this one's interesting. She says, I've been with my girlfriend. We're going to call her a, okay, for almost a year. There's another girl, b, we know who hasn't been the most respectful of me and our relationship, calling my girlfriend to meet when I wasn't home, sending flurry texts while we were in a rough patch, et cetera. At the time, I just laughed it off. But recently I had this intense urge to just look through her texts. Yeah, I know it's wrong, but everything inside me told me to look. We were having a nice conversation, and out of nowhere, she brought up b. This is the first time I've done this in my long decade of dating women, and I feel terrible, like I crossed the line. But also, what the fuck? There's so much flirting in there. I guess we swear on this podcast. [00:03:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I think we do. We're learning new things. [00:03:35] Speaker B: Okay, so here's the question. How do you navigate around other queer women while being in a relationship? B flirts with a. A refuses to see it as flirting. A says it's because she doesn't have a lot of lesbian friends, so she wants to maintain this friendship with B. She says it's all right for her to speak this way because she's not physically attracted to B. I don't know what to do. I don't want to be constantly suspicious about my girlfriend's actions. I'm scared of what she is doing and who she is talking to. I love her a lot, and she said she'll stop this behavior, but I'm at a loss. [00:04:13] Speaker A: Okay, that's a doozy. [00:04:15] Speaker B: That was a long one. [00:04:16] Speaker A: That was a long one, too. Yeah. I mean, I feel like it comes down to trusting her girlfriend's boundaries, right. And whether or not hers are porous and if she can recognize that B is being inappropriate and then set a boundary. I've been in a relationship where I felt a similar kind of distrust in the ability of my partner to recognize when other people were crossing lines because their lines were a little too porous. [00:04:45] Speaker B: So you can have your boundaries, but if you're unsure of your partner's boundaries, then things can kind of fall apart. [00:04:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Because sometimes I feel like, well, not having boundaries can come down to a kind of people pleasing behavior where you're afraid to be honest, and so you just want to be nice and you don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. But then in the process, you're not clearly communicating a line or a boundary, and then that person doesn't get the message because you're not actually being straightforward about it. You're padding it with other things. And as we know, in the realm of dating and love, oftentimes we hear what we want to hear. [00:05:30] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:05:31] Speaker A: So the person b is not going to hear the fluffy padded the actual boundary in there. They're going to hear, oh, I like you, or, I like hanging out with you, or, I have a great time. They're going to hear whatever they want to hear that's just going to reinforce how they feel about the girlfriend. [00:05:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And then I guess, is it also trusting this third party's boundaries that they respect your relationship? [00:05:52] Speaker A: Totally? [00:05:53] Speaker B: Because I think they talked about that. She doesn't think she's being respectful of. [00:05:57] Speaker A: Their relationship, which it sounds like she's not, because if she's taking advantage of times when their relationship is rocky, I mean, she sounds like she's had the conversation with her girlfriend and the hope is that she's clearly communicated what she's comfortable with. [00:06:15] Speaker B: There's a lot of layers there because it's like every relationship has their own rules. Yes. Even if you don't say them. Sub rules for boundaries, but they need to be agreed upon. [00:06:30] Speaker A: Yes. [00:06:30] Speaker B: It's like, you guys have to have those conversations. [00:06:33] Speaker A: Yeah. And it sounds like, I mean, did it say in there that they kind of have now had the conversation about what is acceptable and what's okay? And I think that's the first step in making sure they're on the same page about, like, okay, what are the lines around our relationship that we need that protect us as a couple and that totally make us feel safe and secure? And then beyond that, the hope is that her girlfriend will also communicate that to be when she tries to intervere and reinforces the fact that she's with someone and that this is the relationship she's in and that this can only be friendship. You know what I mean? I've been in that situation where I just feel like it's really important to mention the word friend or pal or just to reinforce that this is what this is to me. So this is why I'm saying this word this many times, because I want you to also know, I want it to be clear that this is the relationship I want to have with you. [00:07:30] Speaker B: I think our questionnaire, too, is that they want to feel from their partner that the priority is their relationship. And maybe she's coming at it from like, this is a problem with you. I do that a lot of the time. I'll deflect it. I'll be like, you're doing this. Whereas when really I need to peel back. It's like, oh, I just want to know that my partner prioritizes me. And maybe if I approached it that way, my partner would get it and then be like, oh, this is something I can do for my partner to show them and drop those things in. Like the friend. [00:08:05] Speaker A: Totally. [00:08:05] Speaker B: Something like that. [00:08:06] Speaker A: Yeah. That way it's less about you not trusting your partner and it's more about you trying to just reinforce the partnership that you have with them. [00:08:14] Speaker B: So communication. [00:08:15] Speaker A: Communication. Is that where we're landing big time and clear communication. Right. None of that fuzzy shit, none of that fluffy stuff. It needs to be clear as day. [00:08:27] Speaker B: I've seen you do that a lot lately. I've been impressed. We send voice memos back and forth, and I'll get the voice memo, and you're like, okay. I told them, I can't see you. [00:08:40] Speaker A: It's done. [00:08:41] Speaker B: I'm just like, that's amazing. Even in non relationship relationships, friendship things, too. [00:08:47] Speaker A: Yeah. When it's just. And honestly, it feels so good, which is huge for me to say, because boundaries and being clear with communication and things like that used to make me so incredibly uncomfortable. And not to say that it's perfect. There's still times like, and depending on who I'm communicating a boundary with, it can be difficult. [00:09:07] Speaker B: And it's kind of like working a muscle. It's like the more you do it, the more you realize you are helping future you. [00:09:14] Speaker A: Totally. Yes. And another thing that I've had to reframe in terms of boundaries is how it's not necessarily a wall. Like, it's not an obstacle to connection. For example, my mom was about the fact that she doesn't like tattoos, and I have tattoos, and I was basically setting over the phone. I was like, I know how you feel, but I don't want to hear about it when we're together. Because if I feel like I'm being judged when we're together, I'm going to want to see you less, and I'm going to want to hang out with you less. And in order for us to still be able to see each other, I need you to not bring it up because I already know how you feel. [00:09:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's interesting, too. And you touched on it earlier, and we're going to have a whole episode on people pleasing, but it's like you are sharing. I think people get nervous of like, oh, I don't want to upset someone by putting up a boundary when in fact, you're actually inviting people in totally to what's important to you and what you need and letting people then step up for you, which I think can be really beautiful. [00:10:14] Speaker A: Totally. And you're defining, like, this is the relationship I want to have with you, and these behaviors don't fit within that. It's going to actually damage our relationship. Yeah. [00:10:23] Speaker B: So I think this is a good time for some Dylan. [00:10:26] Speaker A: Okay. Dylan is a registered psychotherapist based in Toronto. Their pronoun journey currently finds him comfortable with he or they pronouns. Dylan has three years of experience in private practice working with clients both in person and online in Canada and beyond. Their approach to therapy is relational, anti oppressive, and collaborative. Welcome, Dylan. Thank you so much for being here. [00:10:52] Speaker C: Thank you. It's great to be here. [00:10:54] Speaker A: We're so excited to talk to you. Obviously, we're not therapists. We're not experts. We're coming from our own experience and those of people we know. So we're very excited to have your expert lens applied to all the things we're talking about. So, thank you. [00:11:12] Speaker C: Of course. [00:11:13] Speaker A: And today we're talking about boundaries. So what are boundaries? And can you give us a few examples of boundaries? [00:11:22] Speaker C: I love being asked these questions because these are things that I just so take for granted in my day to day work, and it requires me to pause and be like, wait a minute. What does this even mean? So, for me, I would say boundaries are the limits of engagement that we set between ourselves and others. And they provide a delineation between what is comfortable enough or tolerable for us in relationship versus what is too uncomfortable or intolerable in relationship. [00:11:55] Speaker A: Okay, that sort of answers a bit of our second question, but let's emphasize this part. So why are boundaries so important? Why is it important to know your boundaries and to be able to set them? [00:12:09] Speaker C: Yeah. They are important because they correspond to our needs or our preferences that determine our sense of safety and stability in relationship. [00:12:22] Speaker A: Okay, how do we set? Like, literally. So when I first realized as a people pleaser, I'm not even joking, Dylan. I texted a friend to ask her, what is a. Like, what is a boundary I could set? I literally had no idea. And then it turns out she was a terrible person to ask because she had no boundaries. And she reminded me of that. So I couldn't even ask the right person for an example of a boundary. Like, I felt like, completely a complete boundary failure. But if someone were in that stage where they're like, how do I technically, physically even do that? What do I say? [00:12:59] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, to start with, it requires interception, self awareness, and then honesty. We also have to have the self esteem to value our own boundaries in order to set them. Sometimes we don't know what our boundaries are, and that's okay. Sometimes we need to accumulate experiences. We need to experiment or test our boundaries in order for us to get acquainted with them. It's not something that I think we just automatically know entirely and perfectly. So again, this kind of gentleness with ourselves to learn our boundaries is really important. Offering that same gentleness to other people who we may or may not be in close relationship with. And, yeah, the ability to say I don't know is also really important. Right. Sometimes we can feel sort of impelled to state our boundaries when we may or may not necessarily actually have an answer for someone. So I don't know. As a valid answer, in order for you to get to the point where you have a boundary to set, and then at that point, it requires the honesty, the directness, the kind of courage to state that verbally to someone, and. [00:14:30] Speaker A: Then also to restate it if you need to, and restate it again if you need to. And maybe there's a consequence at the end of that too, if that boundary isn't respected. Do you think boundaries are ever kind of misused in, let's say, the dating world? Or, like, I know I've dated some people who might say that they're boundaried, but it is more like emotional walls or something. You know what I mean? And then on the other side, if people are maybe more anxiously attached, there's no boundaries sometimes, because boundaries then feel like an obstacle to connection when all they kind of want to do is be close. So do you think the waters get a little muddied with boundaries sometimes, depending on our dating style and how we're attached and all that? [00:15:19] Speaker C: It gets so murky. It's very murky because someone can be setting a boundary based on the kind of processes that I've just talked about, the self reflection, the honesty, the learning. But boundaries can also be used as a method of control, as a self protective barrier. It's rule setting at the end of the day. So how we arrive at those rules is just as important as the rules themselves. So I don't have any simple answers here. [00:16:00] Speaker A: That's okay. [00:16:01] Speaker C: A boundary on its surface might be a little more complicated than it appears. [00:16:07] Speaker B: Is it the old everything in moderate, like, too much of a good thing, right? You may start flexing that boundary muscle, and then you're like, ooh, this is actually a weapon. [00:16:17] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. You're like, you've got a castle built around you that nobody can enter. Yeah. [00:16:23] Speaker C: Right. And boundaries require consent. You can state your boundary, but the other person has to say, yes, I can do that, or no, I can't. And that may determine the state of your relationship. That may determine whether your relationship exists in that moment or not. But it's never a kind of unilateral, authoritarian thing. Right? It's always negotiated, it's always mutual. And someone can say, yes, I can do that. I can respect that boundary, or no, I can't. And where does that leave us? [00:17:03] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much, Dylan. [00:17:06] Speaker B: Should we do another? [00:17:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you have another one? [00:17:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I sure do. Okay, we're staying in the relationship theme. [00:17:13] Speaker A: Okay. [00:17:14] Speaker B: I just broke up with my ex and asked for space, but they aren't giving it. They're all over my socials, liking posts, dropping in. What do I do? Dear queer, I don't want to block them, but they just aren't getting it. I already have to run into them all over town. This community is so small. Sos. [00:17:33] Speaker A: It definitely is so small. So there's no way around this one. Again, communication seems like such a huge key here. It could be. I feel like she has a few options. She's saying she doesn't want to block them. She could give them basically an opportunity to stop interacting so much and say exactly that. I don't want to block you, but this feels like more interaction than I want. I've asked for some space, and that means not liking and sharing and having that kind of online interaction. And I'm asking you for that and basically maybe communicate to that. The consequence would be, like, if this isn't doable for you, totally. Okay, I understand. Then maybe we just remove each other or block each other for a while and just take some time to ourselves. Because the alternative is just blocking the person and then that can cause other drama. [00:18:43] Speaker B: It could be seen like passive aggression. [00:18:45] Speaker A: Yeah, but this way, it's like, in that way it can make it weird if they see each other in public and the ex isn't sure how they feel about them. So I think the more you can communicate, and it's not in a nasty way, it's in a very just matter of fact, like, this is what I need. I would love if you could honor that. If it's too hard for you, let's just remove and just take some space, technically, so that we can't. There's no way of actually interacting. [00:19:14] Speaker B: Right. And I think, do people forget that you can take some space, like you said, and it doesn't have to be permanent. Maybe we just, like, sometimes you need to get out of that rhythm and by you blocking them, I know that can sound harsh, but you're removing yourself from being in that habit. Like, maybe they have a habit of checking in on you. And so just like, hey, take a. [00:19:38] Speaker A: Couple of weeks off. [00:19:39] Speaker B: It doesn't mean you can't ever add them back in. [00:19:42] Speaker A: Totally. [00:19:42] Speaker B: I think we get hung up on the finality of things. [00:19:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I think you're right back. There's, like, muscle memory to it. So you're used to checking. Used to checking. But, yeah, it doesn't have to be permanent. And they can communicate that. Be like, how about the next three months or something? We just take some official space, and then hopefully down the road, we can be okay with more interaction. So. [00:20:07] Speaker B: Okay. Boundaries in relationships. Boundaries with parents, boundaries. What about boundaries within ourselves? [00:20:14] Speaker A: Oh, man. I forget the name of this. Actually, I do remember the name of this book. It's called setting boundaries will set you free. It's, like, the cheesiest title, but I'm pretty sure it was this book. It was incredible. It had all these exercises in it that you can do, and I remember some of them, again, in this phase where I was like, literally, what is a boundary? Like? I have no idea how to set one or why I would want to set one. And I remember this one exercise in particular that basically asked you to reflect back in the past and think about instances where people where different boundaries of yours have been crossed and identify what that boundary was. And then basically kind of make a promise to yourself for in the future what you would do if that boundary was crossed or what you can set up preventatively to be like, this will not happen. For example, one for me was that when relationships are negative or toxic or whatever, and they're bleeding too much into my life outside of the relationship, like my life at home with my daughter and stuff, if they're taking too much of that energy away from me, being able to be a good mom at home and just have the stability in myself that I need, that's when I know it needs to end. [00:21:34] Speaker B: Listen to that. [00:21:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Because I know I've done that in the past. And so now I go into things knowing, like, this is an important line for me, and it needs to be healthy and contribute to my life and contribute to my happiness and give me good, positive stuff, rather than be an energy sucking kind of thing. [00:21:58] Speaker B: Been there. [00:21:59] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So that I remember being a really significant one for me. [00:22:03] Speaker B: That's so helpful. I think that's an emotional boundary. [00:22:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:22:08] Speaker B: So it's like, okay, boundaries. We can see how they're helpful for us. Can you think of a time when someone set a boundary to you and that you actually appreciated it? [00:22:22] Speaker A: Oh, this is good. This might take me a second. [00:22:26] Speaker B: That's all right. Because I think it's like we forget once you start working those muscles, and you see the positives. I mean, I think there were times where when I was younger, I might have been like, oh, is it me? Is it something? And I'm like, no, tell me we're close enough. [00:22:40] Speaker A: Totally. [00:22:41] Speaker B: Tell me that you're not feeling it. Let's push this. [00:22:44] Speaker A: Yes. That's actually a perfect example. I feel like when you're able to do that with other people, I mean, you're advocating for yourself. You're showing that person that they can trust your answers. So if you were to ask me for a favor, and I was like, sure, you know what I mean? Yeah, but I didn't really mean it, or I was already maxed out. You can't then really trust me after that because I wasn't being honest with you about my own capacity. And so if I could say, you know what, I'd love to, but I can't this time. Please ask me again. But I'm just maxed out right now. Then you can trust me. And that means also, I'm giving you permission to be honest with me about what you can and can't do. And it's not at all personal. It's literally like you listening to yourself, honoring yourself. And I think Covid helped us with this in some senses because it became so much more normalized for people to say, I really can't or like, I don't have the energy, I don't have the social battery, whatever it is. I feel like Covid allowed us a kind of new honesty in this sense about our capacity. [00:23:55] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great point. So let's send our listeners off with some boundary takeaways. [00:24:03] Speaker A: Oh, man. [00:24:04] Speaker B: We're setting them. Are we getting our friends involved? [00:24:10] Speaker A: Friends, to hold you accountable is always good. You always need a friend who is calling you on your shit. Right. Or can tell when you are justifying something in your mind. You know what I mean? When you get into these little rabbit holes where we justify behavior that we know isn't good or seeing someone we know we shouldn't or whatever. [00:24:30] Speaker B: Oh, if you text that ex, I'm a no. And I'm going to tell you, yeah, it's true. [00:24:35] Speaker A: It's true. I've been good. I think you have to start small. Like, don't start with trying to set the biggest boundary that you've been trying to. You've worked your whole life up towards. You have to start with small stuff. And it might be as simple as being honest with somebody rather than just someone asks you for a favor and you're like, yes, sure, but, you know, you can't start there with being like, I can't this time, or I can't this week. Can we plan for next week? And I will do that. Just the little stuff where you are checking in with yourself and truly listening and honoring what your real answer is, what your real honest answer is. So starting small. Also, don't judge yourself if you can't say no for some reason. There's going to be social constraints, financial constraints, there's going to be when it comes to even work and boundaries where maybe you just can't say no. Maybe you're in a certain position or it's a new job or just whatever for the reason of your social location, you can't say no. And don't judge yourself for not being able to say no. I read this great book recently by Pooja Lakshmin, and actually I heard her on a podcast where she was saying how you can almost set no boundaries for yourself in the sense that, quote unquote, no. So if I can't say no this time to something, then just reflecting on that and saying, well, I hope maybe in a year from now I'm in a position where I can say no to that. [00:26:06] Speaker B: Oh, I love conversational things. [00:26:09] Speaker A: Can. [00:26:10] Speaker B: And yeah, just because you said it doesn't mean that it can't evolve and all. We're all growing, right? [00:26:18] Speaker A: Another thing poojalakshmi mentions is that a boundary can be in the pause we take between a request and our reply. Yeah, so it's just that pause, right? [00:26:29] Speaker B: Like in texting, it's like we feel like we have to respond right away and it's like, wait, what? [00:26:34] Speaker A: Do I actually feel totally like letting a call go to voicemail instead of answering it? Because, you know, they might be requesting something of you and so genuinely taking the time. Or like responding over email if you're too nervous to say no in person to someone because you'll feel the pressure or guilt around saying no. And that's another thing, is guilt should not be the driving force for our answers. Like, if we're worried about feeling guilty, if we say no, that should not be the reason you say yes. [00:27:07] Speaker B: Totally. I think this is a good time to just let the listeners know we are not experts. This is our life advice you're going to be hearing from Dylan. [00:27:20] Speaker A: He's the expert. Yes. [00:27:22] Speaker B: He's a relational psychologist. And we'll have some expert advice. We're here for anecdotes. [00:27:28] Speaker A: We're here for queer community. [00:27:30] Speaker B: We're here to tell you what works for us. Take it. [00:27:34] Speaker A: Leave it. We know what we know because we've lived it. [00:27:37] Speaker B: So go set some boundaries. [00:27:39] Speaker A: Okay. We're going to set our final boundary for today by ending this right now. But we want to thank you for joining us here on Dear Queer. It really means a lot to have you listening. Please, like follow, share, tell your friends to listen, and please, please send in your questions or comments or topics you want us to cover. [00:28:00] Speaker B: This has been another episode of Dear Queer. Just a reminder, we are not actually experts. Any advice given should actually come from our experts, who we will bring in from time to time. Music brought to you by Sean Patrick Brennan. Produced by myself, Lauren Hogarth, and your host, as always, Elena Papianas. I'm getting that.