Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Because more often than not we do experience the opposite where it's like you go in expecting or hoping for an apology and what you get is doubly hurt. And so then you're less likely to offer that, that soft kitten belly to someone else because you're like, well, last time I did that I got, I got stabbed.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: If you have a question.
[00:00:29] Speaker A: Have no fe.
You can simply.
[00:00:49] Speaker C: We have Robin La Cambra back on the show. As you may remember, they are a queer philippinex creative speaker and facilitator who draws from some from somatic relational psychotherapy, mindful movement and conflict mediation. Robin's work aims to demonstrate how interconnected we are, highlighting our shared responsibility to co create a just and liberated world. Robin is a mother and embraces their playful shit disturber Persona.
Fun fact, she also loves UBE tiramisu. Had to get that in there.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: That sounds good.
[00:01:27] Speaker C: You can find our guest Robin on Instagram at Safer Space Project as well as at Good body feel and goodbodyfield.com which is their self care for community site which we definitely recommend our listeners check out. Welcome back, Robyn.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: Thanks for having me back.
[00:01:48] Speaker A: It's so good to have you. I feel like since we, like since the minute we stopped recording with you in season one, we were like, when can we have Robin back on? Like, what else can we talk to Robin about? Like, we immediately had other ideas. Oh, we've got a doggy here, doggy visiting. So we're so pumped to have you. And this topic, how to apologize. I guess it's something that's been on my mind probably over the years because, you know, in whether it's family relationships or dating or you know, romantic relationships, there's so many opportunities to apologize along the way or to require or want an apology.
I find it pretty easy to apologize. I don't know if I've gotten better at it since having a child and I feel like it's so important with in terms of repair. But I have encountered so many people who have a hard time apologizing and I'm wondering from your perspective, why is it so hard for some people to apologize?
[00:02:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I know it devastates me sometimes thinking about how hard of a time folks have and it's from, from speaking with folks in my therapy practice and in conflict mediation, it usually is because of an allergy to their own shame program.
And when our shame part comes online, it could feel kind of self annihilating. Like, oh my goodness, I'm.
I'm gonna be ostracized. I'M going to lose my connection, I'm going to be rejected, I'm bad.
Um, and so we over identify with the behavior that caused hurt and take it personally or personalize it by saying, rather than having the mindset of oh, the, the thing that I said or the attitude that I had or the thing that I did caused pain, it's, we personalize it. It's like, I'm bad, I'm pain.
And now I have to quickly, quickly prove that I'm not bad and that I'm still worth loving and that I'm still worth being in community and connection with.
So how do I, you know. And then it kicks up all sorts of defense mechanisms like justification or minimization or gaslighting or any, any and all of the instances many of us have experienced when someone can't take accountability for the pain they've caused on accident.
[00:04:32] Speaker A: Right. So the shame is almost like an internalizing force. So then instead of, rather than allowing someone to focus on the other person's experience, who you did cause pain or whatnot, the shame sort of spins them inside themselves so they can't connect in that moment. That makes a lot of sense, I think.
[00:04:50] Speaker C: I always go to. Let me just reshape your narrative so that I don't have to feel bad.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: Yes. Here's a better story. What do you think of this one?
[00:05:02] Speaker B: Totally, totally. Because feeling bad feels bad. You know, like so many of us aren't trying to cause pain on purpose.
And so when we realize or when we're given the gift of knowing that we've impacted somebody in a way that's misaligned with the ways that we want to be in relationship with them, it does feel threatening. Because it's like, I love you, I don't want to hurt you.
And because I hurt you, are you going to stop loving me or are you going to stop accepting me?
So there is this emotional mental threat of disconnection, which is rejection, which means a threat to safety.
When we take it down to. It's like base, base components that are operating.
So when we're able to find a sense of self security, of okay, I'm human, I'm going to make mistakes, I'm going to hurt people all the time on accident, not because I'm bad, but because I'm imperfect and that's just inherently human, can I trust that? When I say center repair and center integris relation, then my sense of security, connection, belonging isn't actually threatened, it's deepened.
And I think people become too allergic to the shame or too afraid of feeling shame, that it's like, I gotta at all costs divert, swap this away. Yeah.
[00:06:36] Speaker C: And how does someone who's maybe realizing in that moment that they're going into that their nervous system's firing up, maybe they're feeling it in their body and they're going to that shame place.
What do you recommend to kind of put a gap between there so that they can not enter that space?
[00:06:59] Speaker B: Yeah, there's there, there's a saying in therapy circles of like, name it to tame it, you know, And I think when we tell on ourselves, like my therapist is always telling me to tell on myself when I'm in a situation with my partner or my kids or whatever. It's just to describe what's happening. Like, tell on yourself. Like, oh, this conversation is so important to me. And I have to admit that I'm starting to exit my window of tolerance or I'm starting to reach the limit of my capacity and I don't want to cause further harm. Can we take a breather? So it's not necessarily about stopping or judging the fact that a shame activation is coming or that we're becoming overwhelmed with whatever is happening in our somatic experience or in our bodies. It's about naming it. Like, this is what's happening for me. It's not because of you. And you don't have to take care of it. Oh my goodness, Please don't.
But let me. Let's take a little breather so that I can take care of this. Because it's not on you. So that I can return to this conversation and do the emotional labor of taking accountability.
Yeah, I don't think we need to aim for perfect apologies, but we can. We simultaneously do the capacity building work of increasing our ability to be with discomfort while still honoring our limits.
You know, like we, we still have limits. We're still human. So take a breather.
Take a breather. And usually, you know, I often will encourage folks that when you need space or when you ask for space to just give a time, you know, like, let's take a five minute breather. Let's take a ten minute breather. Let's actually. Can we put a pause in this for today and let's return to this conversation next week so that I can show up even more resource because it really is important to me that I take accountability and help you feel like our repair is actually doing what it needs to do, which is to repair.
So let's take, you know, a week or a day or an hour, whatever it is, so that I can show up again more resourced.
[00:09:16] Speaker C: I love that because, I mean, I think we've all been on the end of a bad apology where we feel like the person who's giving it, it's like, did they even hear me? Are they just saying sorry to say sorry?
I wonder if you could kind of get into what, you know, I know you said there aren't good or, you know, necessarily good apologies, but that, like, what. What makes an apology.
Some apologies feel better than others.
[00:09:46] Speaker B: Oh, hear me clearly. There are good apologies.
And then asking, did I get it? Like, I'm sorry that I said that thing to that person rather than without thinking twice about it. I should have known to ask you before I shared that part of your story to somebody. I'm. I'm sorry that I broke your trust and confidentiality.
Did I get it? Is there. Is there more that I need to understand about the hurt and the harm that I caused?
So there's like a curiosity around, like, am I understanding this clearly? And if you aren't understanding it, then. Then say that, like, oh my God, I'm so sorry that I caused you any amount of pain. Can you help me get clear on, like, what it is that I did so I know not to do it again kind of thing? Also, acknowledging that no one owes you that labor. Like, just because I bring my hurt to you doesn't mean I have to teach you about it.
So you can put that request out there knowing that they don't owe you that necessarily.
So, yeah, now we're getting, like, into the weeds. It's like the multi parts and then the multi parts to the. So that the different parts.
[00:11:00] Speaker C: You were leveling up the apology.
[00:11:03] Speaker B: Yeah, like, we're building a pyramid.
So it's like centering breath, reminding yourself that you're a good person so that you don't require that labor from the person that you hurt.
Saying thank you, which acknowledges the courage.
Saying sorry and then being specific. And if you don't know what you're specifically saying sorry for, ask.
Knowing that they don't owe you an explanation necessarily.
And then really centering mutual understanding.
And understanding doesn't mean agreeing. Can you get ins. Even though it might be misaligned with your intention, like, you didn't see it that way or you didn't mean to do it or whatever it is. Can you bench your experience long enough to enter into theirs and really try to intimately understand their pain, even if you don't necessarily agree?
So that's another thing Understanding doesn't mean agreeing.
Can you just get into the mindset of, like, I deeply want to understand what is happening for this person and take accountability for how something I did triggered them into that experience.
I love the addition of this.
[00:12:17] Speaker A: I love this thank you step. Yeah. And this curiosity.
[00:12:19] Speaker C: I haven't thought of it in that way before, so that's definitely a new one for me.
[00:12:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:24] Speaker C: Because you're right. It is such a.
A vulnerable position. And I think we can so often. I mean, we all live in our own brains and in our own experiences, and to. Yeah. The gratitude piece, I think, would also really just help each other kind of put down. I don't want to say swords, but, like, I don't know, just like, I can imagine your body just relaxing into it more and being on the. Either person being on the defensive.
[00:12:50] Speaker A: Well. And I think we'd be a lot more likely to be able to tell more people more often if they've heard us, if we. If even one person gives us that thank you a single time, because more often than not, we do experience the opposite, where it's like, you go in expecting or hoping for an apology, and what you get is doubly hurt. And so then you're less likely to offer that. That soft kitten belly to someone else because you're like, well, last time I did that, I. I got. I got. I got stabbed. So, like, it hurt more in the end.
[00:13:22] Speaker C: So.
[00:13:22] Speaker A: So, yeah, if more people offered that thank you portion, we'd feel a lot more welcome to offer those vulnerable parts.
[00:13:32] Speaker C: Oh, so true. And I'm just thinking about, like, in my own relationship, too. It's like, it's usually never the thing that you're initially in conflict for. It's like how it was handled. It's like you can do more damage in the defensive energy, in the.
Putting your back up in the. Not acknowledging the other person's feelings. And I. I think what you said, Robin, about it doesn't. I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but, you know, acknowledging someone else's pain doesn't actually mean you have to abandon your position.
Like, you can disagree and still acknowledge someone's pain, which I think is. Is really cool that you touched on that as well.
[00:14:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And. And your disagreement also doesn't have to necessarily be understood by person in pain.
So, like, sometimes when we're entering into conflict, especially with. Well, actually, it doesn't matter when. When we're in conflict and I've impacted someone in a way that I understand, but don't Agree with where it's like, I'm not going to waste time trying to find an example, but can I acknowledge the pain that they're experiencing? Validate it? Like, yeah, valid. I can see how you got there. I can see how you got there. I can see how my, my actions triggered you into that experience and I take accountability for it.
I'm sorry, what do you need to feel like our repair is moving in the direction of regain trust? Or what do we need to stay in community with each other even if it means like trust has faded and co creating that plan and, and then, you know, I'm like me as a person apologizing. I'm having my own experience too, but I don't need to put that labor on this person, especially if they're not my partner. Like, if it's my partner, I'm going to be like, I'm going to need you to support me tomorrow because I'm having my experience too. So there is this reciprocity. But if there's like a power dynamic, it plays play like.
And reciprocity is kind of a trickier thing to expect in that relationship.
So for example, I used to own a movement studio. So if I was taking accountability for how someone might have been hurt or harmed in that space, I wouldn't necessarily expect a client to then support me, you know, like that power differential anyways.
But I still deserve support and it's not on this person who experienced hurt or harm to support me. I then like wrap that up, do whatever I gotta do to feel like that is on its way to feeling like a complete restorative process. And then I turn to my circle of support where I can then barf and be like, like they told me that I. And then I. And then I. It triggered my mom wound. And then, and I'm getting support from someone who can really show up for me and center me because we all deserve that kind of care even when we've caused hurt to somebody. But the person we hurt isn't the person that should be responsible for soothing our nervous system.
Yeah. So that's just something that I want to add. Like sometimes it feels like, oh, when I'm, when I've done something wrong, the labor is so asymmetrical and the care is so asymmetrical. What about me?
And to that I respond, yes, of course. What about you? It's not on that person, but you, you can turn toward people who do have the capacity and the space from the situation to be able to hold you and your Valid upset.
And I want, I, I get curious about whether when people realize that they need to engage in some sort of accountability process, if they know, like, oh, on the other side of this, I, I can call Alina and they'll hold me. You know, like, on the other side of this, if, if I just hold space and center this person who I've accidentally hurt, I know that in two hours, I'm gonna go walk my dog, I'm gonna call my bestie, I'm gonna, like, cry into a pillow and, and give all my hurt parts that kind of attention.
And if we know that we can future cast that level of self support, if we can then, like, really center the person who was brave enough to say that we hurt them.
[00:18:07] Speaker A: I want to ask one more thing about the sorry portion, the first portion.
So, I mean, based on what you've said, it sounds like the word sorry is required to be as it's a part of it is one of the requirements of a good apology.
But is that always the case? Are there other ways that people can apologize that feel authentic without the word sorry?
[00:18:35] Speaker C: Yeah, especially as Canadians.
[00:18:37] Speaker B: I sometimes think of love languages where we have different love languages. So I can be pouring the way that I express love into you, but if that's not a way that you register love, all of my effort.
Like, if acts of service is the way that I show love, for example, that's my mom. Like, my mom will, like, so selflessly give, give, give, give, give, even though she's, like, frowning while she's doing it and is, like, huffing and puffing. And that's supposed to be a sign that she loves me so much she'll, like, labor herself into, like, a fit.
But I, I, for a long time could not register that as love. I'm registering that as I'm an inconvenience to my mom.
But if the words I love you so much, here, have this chicken that I made for you, then I could be like, oh, this was an act of love.
So some people don't need an Apollo like the word I'm sorry to feel that your presence and connection and curiosity, like all of the other elements of the apology are there. But some people might not receive the gesture of care as, as complete repair.
And so, you know, I, I, I, I love dating because we get to ask these questions of each other, where it's like, what's your love language? What's your apology language? Like, if I were to hurt you, like, how would, how would you like me to, to move? How would you like me to show this is how I instinctively show up and intend to intentionally show up. Would you receive that or, like, you know, currencies? I'm thinking of, like, American dollars and then like, Filipino pesos or whatever. Like, would. Would y' all, like, would you receive that? Can I deposit that into your bank? And will your bank know to receive it as a deposit?
And so having these sorts of clarifying questions when conflict isn't happening is such a great way to discover how to speak the same language.
Because oftentimes that's what can produce the conflict is we think we're understanding each other, we think we're speaking the same language, we think. Think that we're doing things in integrity, but.
But we're not.
[00:21:12] Speaker A: Yeah. The debrief is so important after the fact, when everyone is regulated. Again, the debrief conversation. What can we do better next time? Why did that not work? How are we missing each other there? So, yeah, that's a great point.
[00:21:27] Speaker C: I think too, we all have such different ways. Like, you know, for me, if, like, my partner Dev, like, puts her hands on my shoulders and is like, I got you. It's like that physically grounds me and I'm like, oh, okay, we're good, we're safe. They see me. It's like, that goes so much further than a. I'm sorry.
[00:21:50] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. And I'm literally the opposite. Like, if you touch me, if you touch me, like, oh, to be clear.
[00:22:00] Speaker C: Dev is also there because of my.
[00:22:02] Speaker B: Reactivity on the other side. It's like, I need so much space. So if you say sorry from the other side of the room, then I. Then I love you. You know, like, thank you. You get me. You've got to say sorry from over there.
[00:22:13] Speaker C: I could text you from outside if you want.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, you know, we're all so different. And so even though there are these steps that are guiding principles of how to check off the good apology, it'll land different with every person because our nervous systems are wired differently. And so I love that you brought up the debrief. Yes. Because that also highlights that it's not a done and dusted one time for your mind apology. It's like we actually have to check in. And the process of repair can take a while.
Several check ins, several conversations. It might not be a one and done.
[00:22:54] Speaker C: I had one more question. I know we've been centering on how to kind of give the apology, but if you are looking for an apology, is there a way to set yourself up to actually Be able to kind of make your way through all of our defenses and all of these other things to kind of put you in a better position so that you can be apologized to if you're wanting that.
[00:23:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I love this question.
And yet for the self advocacy piece, I think of again, if it's not an emergency to think of setting each other up for success, not, not just setting myself up for success. Like what do I got to do to come into a conversation knowing that it might not go the way that I'll want it to? So one having this pre inner dialogue of will it be worth it? Will voicing my hurt be worth it? If, if shit hits the fan and if shit hits the fan, what do I need? You know, like do I need to eat a donut beforehand? Do I need to make sure on the other side I'm like hey Lauren, can I call you in three hours? I'm gonna go talk to so and so first and I'm going to need repair or like I'm going to need someone to like hold it down with me on the other side. Well, you know, like so setting these things up of like how am I going to deposit into my nervous system in advance and how am I going, what's my post care going to be? Like what's my post care plan?
So setting that all up and deciding okay, is it actually worth it?
And then if you do decide that it's worth it, then you set them up.
Hey so and so I have a really difficult thing that I need to share with you and I'm kind of nervous about it. So let me know when would feel like a good time where you can show up resourced enough to hear this really vulnerable share.
And then so you're kind of giving them agency too and you're prepping them to be like there is a fire. Come prepared, like come with your fire person outfit or what fire person outfit, whatever you get it, come with all you need to put out the fire.
[00:25:25] Speaker A: And.
[00:25:28] Speaker B: I, this is the way, this is the way I do it. I will say I, I will do something like that and then ask would it be helpful if I sent you a voice note or an email that just outlines some of the things. That way you can come more resourced.
And this is also self protective for me so that I don't have to see their initial reaction that might hurt me. Right? Like it's like you can have your reaction, go have your go boo. Like do you, you of course you're going to have your reaction, go do that, but I know myself enough to know that I, I can't see it.
So something like that. And then, and then we come to the agreed time and we create limits of like, okay, we can talk about this for an hour and a half, and if we need to take breaks, we'll take breaks when we feel out of our window of tolerance or approaching it. Let's both flag it and take a break. We don't have to use a full hour and a half, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And then we, we go. Like, I felt hurt when I shared this very personal part about my relationship. And then you went and told that person it wasn't your story to tell.
And it just kind of breaks my trust a bit.
And I need you to understand that there's this boundary that's crossed.
Um, and I, I, I'm very committed to our repair. If you're willing and if you're feeling generous, you can be like, I know it wasn't your intention. I know you're a good person, like, having this, like, couching effect, you know, because then you're adding deposits into their nervous system and it'll like, take them back into their window of tolerance. Um, so if you're feeling generous, you can, like, front load with that kind of stuff so that you kind of are hacking the shame program that can take over.
[00:27:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:28] Speaker C: Shit sandwich.
[00:27:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the shit sandwich. Yeah. Like, I'm committed to connection. I know that you weren't trying to hurt me, or I hope you know, I hope you weren't trying to hurt me.
My most generous part imagines that this was truly a miscommunication.
But I need you to know that this was the boundary that was crossed and it hurt and it broke my trust. And I hope that you can take accountability. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from and I hope that you're willing to move through repair with me.
[00:27:59] Speaker C: I love that. I think too, it's like always remembering that we're all out here, hopefully trying to just do our best and we're all flawed and coming into it with that kind of in mind.
I don't know, I think just helps a bit as well.
[00:28:16] Speaker A: I feel like I'm more prepared for giving and receiving apologies. I think a lot of our listeners will feel that way too, after this.
Yeah. Thank you for so much. This was very insightful.
[00:28:29] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
I really am going to use that. Thank you.
[00:28:32] Speaker B: So thank you, Laurence, partner.
[00:28:35] Speaker A: Dev will thank you too. Yeah, thank you in advance from Dev.
[00:28:39] Speaker C: Yeah, this has been another episode of Dear Queer. Just a reminder, we are not actually experts. Any advice given should actually come from our experts, who we will bring in from time to time. Music brought to you by Sean Patrick Brennan. Produced by myself, Lauren Hoggart, and your host, as always, Elena Papiems.
