Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Trump said that comment about Greta Thunberg being like she's just an angry woman. And it's like yeah, fuck yeah she is. And she has every right to be.
[00:00:13] Speaker B: If you have a question I love you youu can simply ask your trusty dear Queen.
Dear qu Here.
[00:00:38] Speaker C: We have Robin Lambra back on the show. If you missed our last episode with her on how to Apologize, we highly, highly recommend it.
As you may remember, they are a queer Philippine ex, creative speaker and facilitator who draws from somatic relational psychotherapy, mindful movement and conflict mediation. Robin's work aims to demonstrate how interconnected we are, highlighting our shared responsibility to co create a just and liberated world for all our friends who haven't found her yet, please go check her out on Instagram. They are at Safer Space Project as well as their Self Care for Community site at goodbody feel and goodbodyfield.com welcome back Robyn.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: Thanks for having me back.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: We always love talking to you, so it's a pleasure.
Now anger, ditto. Anger is a really interesting one for me. I was just saying to Lauren before we started recording that I don't think I truly.
I don't know whether it's. I didn't let myself feel anger as much as when I became a mother.
There was something about motherhood and I mean now I know looking back, I didn't know I was autistic then. It's just so overwhelming in terms of senses and sounds and like your body. So now I can put that into some perspective.
But that's what really sort of triggered this topic for me. And it's been something I've been wanting to understand for a while now.
And I've heard different theories about anger. Like people will say, oh, you're not really angry, like you're something else. You're hurt or you're sad. But it's coming out as anger and like as though anger is only a cover up emotion and it's never its own thing.
But I'm curious what your understanding is about anger. How you might explain it or center or describe it.
[00:02:38] Speaker B: Yeah, I think anger is its own thing. I think it travels with other things, but it is its own thing. Like I think of colors. So like, okay, purple, like blue and red.
Purple is a color when anger travels with sadness. But red is still red, right?
Red is still red and blue is still blue.
They travel together and they mix really nicely and they complement each other. So when we're sad, anger comes to protect us. It's our protector, it's our Sword. It's our shield. It's whatever. It's the advocate for the vulnerable.
Right. The advocate for the vulnerable parts of ourselves, the activists for the vulnerable demographics in our community. Like anger is necessary. Anger is change making.
Anger is creative. It's world building, it's destructive, it's hot, it's painful. Like it's, it's a lot of things. It's like fire. Right? Fire contained and intentionally used is protective. It's creative, it's warming.
But fire that's not contained can take down a forest, it can take down a city, it could take down buildings and. Yeah, but, but fire is still fire. Right? It's not this secondary thing that only happens when sadness is here as a cover up. It's. It's still its own thing.
[00:04:08] Speaker C: Okay. Go off anger.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
Right.
[00:04:14] Speaker C: I think I just got school.
[00:04:15] Speaker A: Ser.
[00:04:17] Speaker C: I was thinking too about fire. It's like even when it's not contained, it can be the thing that brings back life. And I think about the forest after a fire and how indigenous communities have been using fire for generations. It's like, anyway.
Go off anger.
[00:04:35] Speaker B: Yeah, go off anger.
[00:04:40] Speaker C: Where do we want to go? Do we want to.
Okay, so it's its own thing.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:45] Speaker C: What about when we experience anger? What's. Let's. Let's get into our bodies a little bit. Maybe if you could help us understand what's going on there when those anger feelings come up.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: Yeah. And, and this is going to be different for every body.
The specific sensory cues that come up, especially because so often, especially if you're femme or socialized as femme, we're like taught to really like subdue these things or ignore and suppress, suppress, suppress.
Which is why sometimes it could feel like we go from zero to a hundred because you're like putting all of this energy into suppressing, suppressing, suppressing. But what's happening is it's a.
Anger is moving us into hyper arousal. Like it's a up energy. It's upregulating, it's energizing, which is why it can feel overwhelming because it's like, like it's, it's this, it's. It's an up. Um, and yeah, I'm thinking of now I'm thinking of the feeling that I'm getting when I'm going up the first hill of a roller coaster. It's like this anticipation of like building, building, building, building, building.
And.
Depending on how that, that'll. That'll.
That'll change how it manifests in everyone's body. So how people experience an up energy or a building energy is going to be different to everybody. My in my body, it feels like my skin is getting tight and hot and I know that I'm starting to like, reach my, like, oh, tiger mom is going to come out when my ears are like hot and my eyes feel like they're stinging.
And then my mind kind of goes blank and bright like, like a fire. As if there's like a fire in my mind.
And so when I start to feel some of those cues and I invite everyone to do this, is to like just imagine a level one anger or, and actually maybe work in reverse, imagine like full blown forest fire anger. What's happening in your body just when you're imagining it.
Because then that'll give you insight into what's happening in your body when you experience this up energy. And then what if we were to take that down to like a campfire, like not forest fire, but campfire. What's happening in your body in campfire status of anger. And then what's happening in your body in like candlelight, you know, like birthday candle.
And then can we start acknowledging and honoring our anger at the candlelight stage and not waiting to admit that we're angry when we're already in forest fire stage?
[00:07:45] Speaker A: Yeah, I've tried to do this recently because I have. Like, first of all, for me, the way the anger feels when I'm at my 10 is like my head is going to explode. Like there's so much pressure in my head and it's going to explode.
And so like, for example, let's say it's okay. This is a real example. So getting my daughter out of the house on time in the morning.
I try my best to set her up for success, set me up for success, and somehow she will still manage to drag the time out and make us like almost late. And so there have been times that I've blown up on her then. And so then I've tried to be like, okay, I need to not only notice this sooner that I'm getting there, but I need to like kind of warn her in a way that it's like I'm feeling this right now.
So we need to do this because otherwise we could get to this, we could get to the head explosion stage, you know. And so.
So that's been something that I've been trying to get ahead of. And it has been really interesting to notice that in my body. Cause it's funny, you've never seen me like that. No friend will ever think I have anger, ever. They've never seen it. Never seen it. They'd be shocked. But like, so then it comes out in that occasion. But it really is like. And what you said in the first answer too, about suppression, it is something that so many people who've been socialized as girls and women, that's like one of our primary directives is to suppress that feeling, push that down, which, like you said, too, makes us all the more dangerous and change making and gives those in power and who want the status quo and the patriarchy and all that, and to continue to try and keep it down.
But then that ends up happening in our personal relationships too, because we don't have any practice in opening the valve just a little bit to let it out.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: Right.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: Because it. Then it just explodes.
Yeah. I don't know.
Lauren's seeing me in a new light right now.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: I love this.
[00:09:53] Speaker C: I also like just the, like when it comes to a head and it's literally your head exploding.
[00:09:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:09:59] Speaker A: Steam out of the ears like in the cartoon. Yeah, yeah.
[00:10:03] Speaker B: And we, we talked about this a little bit in the apology episode around telling on yourself.
So, yeah, I was in the Philippines in the summer and I was solo parenting my two kids.
Um, and I met parts of myself that I thought I had better containment around.
And so I really had to sit them down and be like, listen, I do not like the way that I'm showing up in this situation.
I like, notice that I'm getting angry really quick and it's. I, I really don't like it when I get this way with you.
I'm curious if how you feel when I get this way. They're like, yeah, Monster Mommy is really scary. I'm like, yeah, I don't want to be Monster Mommy. And I'm like. And then I, even though I know the answers, I like engaged with them in conversation of, like, when do you notice that Monster Mommy comes out? They're like, oh, when you ask us to do something more than seven times.
Like, yeah, so maybe, maybe let's like, try to keep it to two times. Like, maybe when I hit two times, I can name the number and be like, I've asked you to put your shoes on two times, and at seven times is when Monster Mommy comes. So you tell me who you want to engage with. Do you want to engage with Monster Mommy? Because, like, then keep on, baby.
Or do you want to, like, stay with this mommy?
Um, so, yeah, it's like we tell on ourselves to the people that are being impacted by our anger.
I also think about beliefs we might have around our anger, like, oh, we're bad if we're get, if we get angry or we're not skilled enough to contain our anger or manage our anger. And if, if I'm not skilled enough that then I'm embarrassing or I'm not, I'm going to scare people away or I'm going to be too much.
So yeah, I always get curious about what people's relationship is to their anger and what the beliefs they have around it.
And can we create a spectrum of our anger just like we were talking about with the various forms of fire?
And can we engage in letting, can we tell on ourselves earlier on? Like can we tell on ourselves when we're at the candle stage to be like, hey listen, it's very far away, we have a very long threshold. But I'm just letting you know that if I have to tell you to put on your shoes one more time, we're going to escalate the fire. And I don't want to escalate the fire.
[00:12:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think it is, it does feel tied to like the shame conversation too we had in the episode about how to apologize too because you can go directly into shame after you've been angry as well.
So it does feel like there's a self compassion piece that we have to have for ourselves. And also like you said checking in earlier if there's a week or a couple days when I notice I'm just like a little more at capacity than normal, that's when I'm more likely to spill directly into anger, irritability, something like that. Because we're maxed so it's gotta go. Something bad is ultimately gonna come out if we're like at capacity.
So those like self check ins feel really important.
[00:13:29] Speaker C: I like the idea though of getting of like even just as a society getting more comfortable with folks anger that it isn't this shame inducing thing. Cause yeah, as you said at the top of the episode, it can also be this like powerful thing.
[00:13:47] Speaker A: Well, it's such an easy that like comment the idea that, you know, if a woman's angry, if a woman of color is angry for someone to blame it on or like for, you know, Trump was said that comment about Greta Thunberg being like, she's just an angry woman. And it's like, yeah, fuck yeah she is. And she has every right to be. She's like, she's angry on behalf of a lot of things and a lot of people too.
[00:14:12] Speaker C: And look what she's able to accomplish. With that anger.
[00:14:15] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:15] Speaker A: But it's so such a lazy way to dismiss or to try and dismiss the actual content and truth of what that anger is trying to speak truly, Right?
[00:14:29] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. Because anger means something needs to change. Yes. And if.
And it makes other people uncomfortable because often what needs to change is how they're showing up in that space too.
Right. Like, we're all beholden to creating change of the just and liberated world that we need to usher in together.
And yeah, you know, black and brown femmes and women are off. Like, often their anger, our anger is perceived as threatening because it is world shaking. Yeah. It is threatening because now you have to show up differently. You have to share your privilege with me. You have to understand that your privilege is causing me pain. And now I'm angry about it. And so now you are uncomfortable and you feel threatened because your world is about to change when you acknowledge how your privilege is causing unintentional harm or intentional harm, depending on your relationship with your privilege. Um, so I think that's why I like these per. Like, I like how you call it this lazy label to diminish the validity of why anger is here.
Because it is an uncomfortable thing to be around. And then it makes all of us accountable. It's like, oh, shit, how am I contributing to this environment that is angry making. How am I contributing to this environment that's pushing someone to the edges or beyond the edges of their capacity that they're responding this way? And this is not to say that one person's anger is always a group project.
Sometimes, sometimes that's not the case. You know, like I could say rainbow, and rainbow reminds somebody of something that happened a long time ago and it triggers their anger. And, you know, that's not necessarily a group project. That's like, that's a you thing.
So I don't want to make it seem like one person's dysregulated nervous system or one person's anger is always a group project.
But in instances like these, like the oppressive responses to anger from black and brown folk especially, is a denial of one's accountability to the environment that they helped create or uphold that pushes people to the point of anger.
And yeah, having to take accountability, having to change one's behavior, having to sacrifice a little bit more so that there's equitable distribution of resources that is uncomfortable. Because now your comfortable world that your privilege kept you in is going to be less comfortable. And that's what's up.
[00:17:21] Speaker C: Too bad. So sad.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:26] Speaker C: Yeah. I think that Comes up too, even in the, like, the times we find ourselves in now. And there's lots of conversations in the activist community about what is the best way to show up. Is it quietly protesting and phoning our representatives and things like that? And then there's like, other folks who are like, no, we need to get angry, be in the streets in a loud and, you know, more fiery way.
I don't know. I think there's room for all of it.
[00:17:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I think so too.
[00:18:01] Speaker C: I'd love to know, are there any physical things we can do for ourselves if we're looking to manage our anger or maybe direct it in a way that is beneficial?
Is there anything you might point to in that respect?
[00:18:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I invite folks to feel their anger and really, intimately know it. And so if we were to create that scale again of like, usually when you're at forest fire level, there's nothing much you can do other than riding it out. I think of toddlers having a tantrum. Like, if you approach a tantruming toddler and are like, just calm down. Like, it's not. It'll probably make it worse.
[00:18:46] Speaker A: Further, in rage, you gotta.
[00:18:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, the toddler needs to have their tantrum, and you as a parent or a caregiver just has to keep them safe, you know, so while they're. They're having their tantrum and then after they crash out, they feel great help.
So can. What are ways when you're in forest fire mode that you can have a, like, safe and contained crash out? Like, can you scream into a pillow? Can you, like, punch your bed? Can you. Often when I'm. That escalated, I need to do something up too. Like, I need to tire me out. So, like, I'll do a burpee or I'll do squats. I'll do something heavy. I'll just like, like I'll really feed into the fire in ways that aren't going to cause harm to others or to myself. So, like punching a pillow or working out or like, getting on the elliptical and sweating or like, yeah, like listening to, like, rage music and like, feeding it so that it can crash. And I can. I. I can let the cycle of anger naturally bring itself back down.
Um, so it's like overstimulating the anger on purpose, knowing that it'll, like, tip you back down and then figuring out, okay, what is campfire level anger? And then what are the things that I have access to that can bring it back down? Like, yeah, maybe for me, it's. It's Having a rage session with a friend and we're like, just talking shit or whatever.
Maybe it's, yeah, like going for a long walk so that I can like blow off some steam and, and not be irritable. Like leak my irritability on other people.
So it's coming up with like, oh, what's effective?
[00:20:42] Speaker A: I've been on walks before when I'm like. Then like, I check into myself and I'm like, I am so, like, I'm angry walking. Like, this is not a chill walk at all. Like, my pace, I'm like going so fast. I have this like determined look on my face and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, I gotta calm down. But I probably needed to get that out. I probably needed to walk in that way first before I could like walk in a more calm, regulated way.
[00:21:05] Speaker C: Oh, Dev. And I love going on walks and shit talking and like it being a little bit unhinged, but just to get. And it's safe because we're partners and like, you know, that's what we do.
But it's really helpful.
[00:21:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it's good.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And that's how we start to off gas the anger because it needs somewhere to go. And if you are not finding intentional ways to release it, it's going to come out in ways that will cause hurt on accident. Like bigger hurt on accident. I often love when I'm pissed. Like I'll watch some trashy, trashy reality TV show because I can get really angry at the people on screen, you.
[00:21:46] Speaker A: Know, like.
[00:21:49] Speaker B: Just get really vile and like gross about it and, and get all the anger out. But I didn't hurt anybody's feelings, you know, like, I didn't hurt anyone's feelings. I got it all out and I got to judge somebody viciously and they didn't hear me. So it's cool. It's the contained fire bit. So yeah, the, the thing with that upregulating energy, it's not always about bringing it down right away. It's about like meeting it and then like coaxing it back down so that it feels like it had. It's, it's time to release, time to shine.
We, we often devalidate our own anger or try to call it something else and then that just makes it worse. So can you validate your anger being like, yeah, I am angry and yeah, I'm allowed to be and yeah, I'm gonna punch a pillow about it or I'm going to like judge a very plastic woman on Love island about it or I'm gonna, like, make fun of men about it or, like, whatever it is. Like, whatever it is, I'm gonna, like, walk and rage and, like, I don't know, talk. Yeah, do it. Do that. Do it.
[00:22:54] Speaker A: I feel like anger is like, that Leo that just needs its time to shine. It just needs his time in the spotlight.
And I gotta say, I did not expect us to have the opportunity to cross over with reality TV on this episode. So this is like, dream. This is our dream.
[00:23:09] Speaker C: Thank you for validating our thesis that reality TV is highbrow because of psychological.
[00:23:16] Speaker A: Work that we can get. Yeah. Love it.
[00:23:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's medicine, for sure.
[00:23:22] Speaker C: I don't really feel angry.
[00:23:23] Speaker B: I also think.
