Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: It's usually pretty easy to recognize when we're experiencing guilt because it's able to be held in conscious awareness without agonizing with shame. On the other hand, our brains can really come up with all sorts of ways to keep the conscious experience of shame at bay, since it is so overwhelming, so threatening.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: If you have a question.
[00:00:43] Speaker C: Growing up in an orthodox catholic household, church and school system, guilt and shame came very easily to me. They were, in fact, one and the same thing to me back then. But researcher and storyteller Brene Brown tells us that the distinction is an important one. Guilt is feeling like something we've done is bad, whereas shame is feeling like we are bad. In other words, guilt focuses on behavior, whereas shame focuses on the self. And today we're going to talk about both. And we have our expert, Dylan Catrice on the episode to weigh in on the topic.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: Well, shall we dive into it?
[00:01:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:23] Speaker B: Welcome back to the podcast, Dylan. It is so, so lovely to have you back again. And today we're talking about guilt and shame.
[00:01:33] Speaker C: Not the most, you know, flowery, positive topics, but really important ones, we think.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: I think it made my cheeks go red just saying it.
[00:01:42] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: Uh oh. What do I feel shame for?
[00:01:46] Speaker A: It has that effect on people.
[00:01:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:49] Speaker C: So we've got a few questions for you, but I'm sure we'll sort of build it into conversation as we go as well.
[00:01:55] Speaker A: Great.
[00:01:55] Speaker C: But the first one is about the distinction between guilt and shame. And this is something growing up I didn't understand, just felt it, you know? And I grew up in a conservative, orthodox catholic school and household and church. And so the guilt and the shame was laid pretty thick, you know, on me. But I know the distinction is important, and I've only learned that as an adult. Like, this difference between guilt being something that we, you know, feeling bad about something we've done, whereas shame is something more about who we are and like, us, ourselves being bad.
Do you see people not knowing the distinction often, like, coming to you and thinking maybe they're feeling guilt, but what they're actually feeling is shame?
[00:02:46] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, in my practice, it's rare that a client will come in with the intention of working on their shame. More often, the shame kind of emerges in more indirect ways over the course of the therapy.
I find that it's more likely to be felt than named, but you absolutely have the distinction, right, as far as I'm concerned. So guilt being a kind of thought process about something you've done, whereas shame is more of a embodied affective existential cringe.
That is more about who you are as a person than any sort of particular action that you've done.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: It's so visceral. I kind of feel like, you know, it when you feel it, it's that thing that just washes over you and you're like, uh oh.
[00:03:47] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. I was thinking like a flush of heat. So, yeah, that washing over you sensation, you know, increased heart rate, some kind of fight, flight, or freeze response. Like, it's really dysregulating to our nervous systems. Not fun.
[00:04:07] Speaker C: So that's a good point. That just made me think, because for me, I understand that's kind of flushing over you too. But shame to me also feels like a shrinking.
[00:04:16] Speaker A: Mm hmm.
[00:04:17] Speaker C: It feels like making yourself small. But I wonder if. And so maybe that's more. Maybe that means my response would be more of a fright or a freeze. But is there that opposite? Is there a fight response to shame too? Like, is that when people get defensive and, like, the lashing out or something? I never even really thought about that.
[00:04:39] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:04:41] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:04:41] Speaker A: I mean, the shame is a threat to the self, right? And we all respond to threats in different ways. Some of us recede, some of us are paralyzed. Some of us lash out.
And I think all of those can have shame underneath them. So people have varied, and it's all contextual, but, yeah, that's a difference for sure.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: Is there? I mean, most of these types of things are rooted in some sort of survival and, you know, move to help us move through the world. Like, what is the benefit of?
It's like you want to disappear. But, yeah, I think my face goes red, that kind of thing. And I'm like, gosh, that just calls more attention to me. What is the value of this experience of shame?
Culturally, personally? Yeah.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: Yeah. So we can actually think of shame in terms of adaptive and maladaptive shame. So in the kind of origin story of shame, is there some kind of relational rupture where there's some kind of lesson that there's something deeply wrong with ourselves and when that is repaired. So, for example, a caregiver is attuned to their child and senses that something is up and is able to address it with them and reassure them that there is nothing wrong with them or that, you know, this part of themselves or this thing that they did is not aberrant or, like, appalling or disgusting. You know, in absence of that, we do tend to make those kinds of meanings of those situations, and it becomes something that we try and avoid at all. Costs.
So when we talk about shame in adulthood, it's actually often, like the response to shame that we're talking about, rather than the shame itself, if that makes sense.
Yeah. So, yeah, I hope that makes sense. I know it's a bit like.
[00:06:57] Speaker C: Yeah, but that got me thinking. So if we say shame, there being like, an adaptive version and a maladaptive, are we saying that there is healthy shame?
[00:07:09] Speaker A: It's interesting. It kind of gets semantic.
[00:07:12] Speaker C: Yeah. So I was thinking about.
Because I never thought that there might be healthy, this healthy shame, or I guess a healthy amount of shame maybe I've considered, but this idea of there being a purposeful, healthy shame versus a maladaptive, unhealthy shame. And I'm wondering if there's been some maybe, like, bringing it back to Lauren's point about this, us as humans, like, why do we feel this? What's the purpose of this? And so much of our most primal things come down to social bonding and, like, keeping us humans together in some.
[00:07:49] Speaker B: Way, shape or form the social contract, you should feel embarrassed or shame. Like, I think embarrassment and shame are kind of in the same family. And it's like, you know, we don't expose ourselves to children. That would be something you should be very ashamed about doing.
[00:08:07] Speaker A: That's a perfect example of how, like, yes, shame, I think, has primarily social function. Right. It keeps people in line more or less.
[00:08:17] Speaker C: Right.
[00:08:18] Speaker A: So it has a benefit to the collective. If we're speaking like evolutionarily, I think the problem is that it can be so damaging to the self when it's experienced in an extreme way. So someone who is locked in their bedroom for most of their life is not really going to cause much of a problem to the collective.
But if they're locked in there because of their shame, the individual aspect of their life is, you know, really hurting.
So, yeah, there definitely is an evolutionary kind of group function. Is there such thing as good shame? I mean, this is where it really gets into just like, you know, we use words to try and describe these experiences because I think that's where, you know, at least at this day and age, people make the distinction between guilt and shame, right? So being able to acknowledge that you've done something that has maybe harmed someone else, know, in a tolerable way, we could maybe consider that good shame. Or maybe we call it guilt.
I think, you know, if someone is feeling mortified by something they have done and they are not reassured in some kind of way, or there's no kind of repair with the person that they feel that they worried they've hurt, that's when it becomes the seed of something different and something more kind of toxic and insidious. So I think good shame is shame that gets addressed in the moment.
And. Yeah, if I can make that distinction, yeah.
[00:10:02] Speaker C: And, I mean, that sort of leads into another point, which is, how do you see, I say guilt and shame here. But maybe what we need to talk about more, really, is shame, because that seems like the far more damaging one.
But what are some of the ways that you see it manifesting in people's attitudes about themselves or their behaviors? Like maybe some of the more problematic ones that people should be aware of?
[00:10:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: Oh, I was going to say, too, if we could kind of anchor it in queerness, because I think that's something a lot of our listeners will resonate and have likely gone on that journey themselves, for sure.
[00:10:42] Speaker A: So, I mean, just quickly, to address guilt, it's usually pretty easy to recognize when we're experiencing guilt because it's able to be held in conscious awareness without agonizing with shame. On the other hand, our brains can really come up with all sorts of ways to keep the conscious experience of shame at bay, since it is so overwhelming, so threatening. Our brains are really good at that. So someone might have a keen enough sense of self awareness to recognize when they're experiencing shame. But for most, especially those who haven't worked with their shame on their own or in therapy, shame is more often veiled under other conscious thoughts and feelings because it cannot be tolerated or integrated, yet it cannot be seen or touched.
This kind of maladaptive shame, as I was saying earlier, often leads to withdrawal and avoidance in people, also potentially to treating yourself or others meanly or harshly.
Sometimes experiences of procrastination and perfectionism or people pleasing can have shame at their core, our desperate need to be good, either fueling us into action or paralyzing us in fear and anxiety, but always trying and usually failing. Hence the maladaptive part, to keep out of awareness some sense of self contempt or worthlessness.
So, you know, for those of your listeners who heard the people pleasing episode and, you know, we were talking about the connection between queerness and people pleasing, and, you know, these early lessons of which parts of ourselves are safe to show and which are not, you know, shame so often accompanies those kinds of self censorship. Right?
There's, you know, we learn that others see some part of ourselves as invalid, disgusting, et cetera.
And so we take that on, and that can absolutely be a seed of shame that we experience for, you know, some amount of the rest of our lives.
So, you know, inasmuch as queer people are told that they shouldn't exist, you know, there's. That's just the grounds are fertile for shame to develop.
[00:13:12] Speaker C: Right.
[00:13:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I think when you were talking about how, like, we can lash out and those types of things that. That saying hurt people, hurt people instead of flashing in my brain. And it. I always try and remember that when I see, especially friends and loved ones lashing out. And it's like, oh, this is actually.
They're giving me a message that there's something else going on here and I should try and look into that and create space for that other thing that is happening.
[00:13:45] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
There's someone coming to mind in my life who shall not be named.
But, you know, with this person, like, there's just really a kind of low threshold for kind of, like, accepting blame or, like, admitting wrongdoing or, you know, hearing critique, any of those kinds of things. And, you know, my suspicion is that what is being protected and what are being kind of staved off as this shame experience. Right. Because it's not just, oh, I'm sorry I did that. I was wrong to do that. I won't do that again. Right. That would be guilt. It's. I would never do that. That was not my intention. You know, like, I'm a good person. Like, what are you accusing me of? You know, like, it's so much. The stakes are so much higher.
So I think, you know, lashing out is often someone trying to protect themselves from a shame experience. Not always, but certainly often, which makes it worse.
[00:14:55] Speaker B: Isn't it so funny that the thing we do to try and protect ourselves, like, the digging in and the, like. Indignancy. Indignancy, sure.
[00:15:05] Speaker C: Yeah. Indignance.
[00:15:06] Speaker A: It's fascinating.
[00:15:07] Speaker B: I'm a digging on that word.
Yeah. It usually has the opposite effect, but it's like you can get so blinded by these emotions and feelings. Yeah, it can be really powerful.
I have a listener question that's kind of in this vein.
Are you down to take a swing at one?
[00:15:27] Speaker A: Yeah, sure.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: Cool. Hi. Dear queer, I'm bi, and as far as my family was concerned, was only in straight presenting relationships. I am now dating a man and found myself coming out to them. What is a good way to handle a family member who is still trying to make me feel shame after coming out?
[00:15:44] Speaker A: So this is a guy who was only dating women and is now also dating or started to date a guy openly.
[00:15:55] Speaker B: Yeah. So it sounds like, you know, out to friends and all of that, but haven't had to come out to their family because all of their past relationships were straight presenting.
[00:16:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:06] Speaker A: Oof. I mean, that's so hard. That is like, you know, the family should be people who kind of support us unconditionally. And unfortunately, we know that is so often not the case. You know, I think first is just a question of safety. Like, if safety is in question, like, you do not have to subject yourself to being around this person. That's, you know, that's a boundary that's a hard line.
If it's not necessarily about safety in the classic sense, then, you know, you certainly have some decisions to make and some conversations to have potentially with other trusted family members. You know, I just don't think that anyone should have to endure so much, like, insults and aggression for the sake of obligation to family.
You know, that's not an experience of family that I wish for anyone. And, yeah, so, I mean, it's tough. It's like, how close, you know, how ingrained is this person in the family? Like, when you go to your family home, is this person there? Is it more for, like, holidays, get togethers? Can this person be avoided? Do other people in your family agree with this person or do they actually disagree or side with you? But, you know, are they willing to be vocal? Are they willing to be your ally in the group? Hopefully, yes. Maybe those are conversations that could be had with some trusted family members.
Ultimately, we can't change other people. Try as we might.
If you have the capacity, you can try and educate, you can try and put your time and energy into, you know, gently informing this person or just demonstrating to them that things are not as they see them.
But that's not your job, that's not your responsibility.
That's something that you can choose to do, but you also have the right to protect your own psychic space and peace and well being. So however you want to balance those things.
[00:18:21] Speaker C: I was just going to say that makes me think that's a great point, that you can't necessarily control what they do. We can't control what anyone else does. But I do wonder if there's just that internal element where it's like recognizing that that person expressing this desire for you to feel shame, that's their shame talking, you know what I mean?
[00:18:44] Speaker A: 100%.
[00:18:45] Speaker C: That's kind of internal refusal to feel it to be like, this is yours.
I'm not going to take this on as my own. I don't actually feel that way about myself. So you can go ahead and feel that if you want, but, like, I'm not going to carry that. I'm not going to let that seep into my own sense of self, you know, which isn't easy and it takes time, but I don't know, there's like a level of separation to make, you.
[00:19:15] Speaker B: Know, I'm really glad and because.
[00:19:17] Speaker A: Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
[00:19:17] Speaker B: Oh, sorry. I was going to say it's true, too, because this person, you know, if they've been in straight presenting relationships in the past, so this sounds like it's new information for this family member. So that family members idea of who their family member is has had an abrupt change, you know, one that, you know, this company probably thinks is no big deal, but in other circles we know that's not the case. And so it made me think about, you know, sometimes these things take time and people have to kind of rewrite those pathways and, yeah, you can also listen to our boundaries episode and people can come back to you and you could. When they're ready.
[00:20:02] Speaker C: Yeah. If they do feel, if this person does feel comfortable enough to say, you know, these kinds of comments aren't welcome, I want to spend time with you, but I'm not going to if these kinds of comments continue. And when I'm around, you know, but again, easier said than done. And you can't just necessarily one day just do that if you're not used to doing that.
[00:20:22] Speaker A: Exactly. And you can change your mind at any time in terms of what your approach is. But that's such a good point, and I'm really glad you said it about other people projecting their shame onto us because not only can that be a good coping strategy for this person when they have to endure this stuff, reminding oneself, oh, wow, they are taking their suffering and pain and throwing it at me. That's kind of sad. I have empathy for them. Maybe that takes a bit of the intensity out. Maybe that allows you to take things, I don't know, less personally.
It reminds me of the classic trope of the biggest homophobes, often either being gay themselves or having some kind of insecurity around their own sexuality or gender presentation.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: Go see Republican.
[00:21:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
So the vitriol that we experience from other people is often more about themselves than it is about us.
[00:21:22] Speaker C: Right.
We have one last question here is around this notion of being addicted to shame. Like this kind of tendency just to go towards shame and to feel badly about ourselves. And this was a really interesting concept when I came across it because I hadn't thought of it. But do you see this in your practice? Is this a pretty common thing? It sounds like a terribly dangerous addiction in its own way.
[00:21:52] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a really interesting idea, and it's one that I actually hadn't encountered before. So it definitely gave me food for thought. Gives me good food for thought. I think shame can certainly, like, as I said before, you know, it can be at the core of a lot of experiences of addiction, you know, where we numb ourselves out and self soothe with various kinds of consumption in order to keep the hurt of shame away. Like, that's certainly a phenomenon that many people experience.
It's also another example of how, you know, shame likes to wear different disguises and is not usually experienced directly or consciously.
I'm not sure that I would say shame itself is an addiction.
But shame and addiction both have a lot in common.
They can be chronic, frequent, and ongoing, and not easily curbed.
They're insidious, so they seem to take on a life of their own within ourselves, and they affect the regulation of our nervous systems and interfere with our daily lives.
I do think the distinctions are important, though. I'm always open to having my mind changed. And I would be really interested to hear what a neuroscientist's perspective on this would be. Just because there are so many different behaviors and activities that can be addiction. But the common link is what happens in the brain and what pathways are activated, etcetera. So it would be really interesting to see a comparative take on addiction.
[00:23:30] Speaker C: We gotta ask our friend Mandy, who is. But that makes me think, though, you know, how you said shame is often couched in other things? We can even maybe look at perfectionism and people pleasing in some way as this kind of tendency or addiction towards shame, because the driving factor is not feeling worthy enough. So you're like, this has to be perfect. I have to please this person. I have to become this person, and then I'll be loved, or then I'll be this. So in some way, there's kind of like a shame thing going on in those cycles.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, they're both cycles, that's for sure. I just wonder about the, you know, with addiction, I think about, like, seeking and reward. Right.
And that being the kind of main dynamic of that cycle. And I'm not sure that quite applies to shame, but there certainly is something cyclical going on.
[00:24:24] Speaker C: Yeah, that's an important distinction. That's true, because the function, like you said, is different, or the purpose or reward. That's a good distinction.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: Would we be remiss if we didn't talk about the link between shame and sexuality and preferences, often it comes up in, I guess, the bedroom.
[00:24:48] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:24:49] Speaker B: Right. That can be a big part of how people explore their own sexuality and preferences and things like that. Those seem big. Dan Savage listener and that seems to come up a lot in his episodes.
[00:25:03] Speaker C: Yeah. Because I guess internalized homophobia is a shame based.
[00:25:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And then it often informs kinks or different things like that.
[00:25:12] Speaker A: Right. And that's where kink and bdsm is. So cool. Cool to think about. Because in a similar way to, like, you know, how we can reclaim pejoratives and words that are used against us, we can also potentially reclaim experience.
And, you know, the question is around, like, agency and freedom and, you know, what's going on in the dynamic of your connection with the other person or people that makes it maybe a safe place for play and exploration versus just a re experiencing of trauma. I mean. Yeah, that's one perspective.
[00:25:56] Speaker B: Yeah. It's such a powerful thing for people to. I love that you said that about reclaiming it and what that can be for individuals who historically or previously felt a lot of guilt or shame around who they are and who they love and the. That they can then turn that into a positive is really beautiful.
[00:26:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And I should say, you know, that can be one person's experience of bdsm, but not everyone's.
[00:26:21] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true. Good caveat.
Yeah. Not an expert.
[00:26:28] Speaker C: Well, thank you. Thank you so much for helping us out with guilt and shame and all the various distinctions and nuances. This was perfect. Thank you, Dylan.
[00:26:38] Speaker A: Very welcome.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: This has been another episode of Dear Queer. Just a reminder, we are not actually experts. Any advice given should actually come from our experts, who we will bring in from time to time. Music brought to you by Sean Patrick Brennan. Produced by myself, Lauren Hogarth, and your host, as always, Elena Papianis.
I'm good.
